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Member (Idle past 6383 days) Posts: 989 From: Leicester, UK Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Is eugenics the logical result of Darwinism? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
What does that have to do with anything. He says he's a Christian and that the work he's doing is based on Christian beliefs.
It would have been more to the point, more honest and more Christian, in past decades not to support those who intentionally destroyed healthy life than to rebel against those who have no other wish than to avoid disease. Moreover, a policy of laissez faire in this sphere is not only cruelty to the individual guiltless victims but also to the nation as a whole.... If the Churches were to declare themselves ready to take over the treatment and care of those suffering from hereditary diseases, we should be quite ready to refrain from sterilizing them. -Adolf Hitler, in his speech on 30 Jan. 1934 He was doing the Christian thing! You got that? AbE:
My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited. -Adolf Hitler, in his speech on 12 April 1922 This message has been edited by jar, 05-27-2005 11:04 PM Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
Well, we will see. Nothing about Jesus?
Interesting. But anyway I will read on and find out. And I'm not quite sure why I am quote-mining and you are not.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
I would also like to know your bibliographic info.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I believe Jesus is included in the above paragraph. Perhaps I was editing while you were posting.
Of course I'm quote mining. The point is, almost any perspective can be supported through judicious quote mining. The facts are that Hitler was a very bad person leading a cadre of equally bad folk. To try to attribute his actions to Evolution, the TOE, is as ridiculous as his distortion of Christianity. The man was not nice. To say that he was not a Christian and operating from what he believed (as did a large percentage of Christians everywhere) is also both ridiculous and dishonest. Christianity has been misused time and time again for truly horrible acts. Right now it is being used to discriminate right here in the US. It's as simple as that. This message has been edited by jar, 05-27-2005 11:35 PM Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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dsv Member (Idle past 4753 days) Posts: 220 From: Secret Underground Hideout Joined: |
Another simple, direct and accurate post Jar. I agree wholeheartedly, and enjoy your posts.
(Sorry that this post is otherwise pointless to the discussion.)
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cmanteuf Member (Idle past 6795 days) Posts: 92 From: Virginia, USA Joined: |
Jar writes: Christianity has been misused time and time again for truly horrible acts. Just want to note that Christianity has been misused, certainly, but so have many other ideologies throughout history. Christianity happens to be the dominant religion today (approximately 1/3 of the world is at least nominally Christian, and an even larger proportion of its wealthiest and most powerful citizens are) but that does not mean it is uniquely pervertable to evil ends. Christianity has been notably abused to support evil, but so has communism, capitalism, facisim, other Abrahamic religions, Hinduism, science[1], etc. Humans will do evil things, and justify it to themselves in all sorts of bizarre ways. [1]: Gould, in Mismeasure of Man, discusses people trying desperately to come up with some sort of "Scientific" means of demonstrating that Our Type of People were superior to Their Type of People (for suitable definitions of "Us" and "Them"). My personal favorite was the man who tried to demonstrate that White People had larger cranial volumes then Black people... by measuring his personal collection of skulls, which had more male skulls than female for "Whites" and more females than males for "Blacks". Lo and behold, his study showed that Blacks had smaller cranial capacities than Whites (he only had four Asian skulls in his collection, all males, which meant that they had the largest average, but he ignored that). Chris
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
Jar writes: To try to attribute his actions to Evolution, the TOE, is as ridiculous as his distortion of Christianity I did not say that nor did I intend it. What I said was that there was, I think, a historical connection between theories of evolution and Nazism. And you come back and suggest that I am trying to blame Nazism on evolution. It's not about blame. I think there is a strand of thought in Nazism that is related to ideas about evolution. As far as "quote-mining" supporting any idea, this is not the case if one does not take the quotes out of context and if one realizes that out of many speeches a politician might bring in all sorts of ideas that are only peripheral to his main philosophy. I understand that. One has to be judicious when examining these written works. I'm not denying that Hitler believed in God. And by the way, I'm still waiting for bibliographic info. for your quotes. I want to know where you got them.
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Morte Member (Idle past 6132 days) Posts: 140 From: Texas Joined: |
And by the way, I'm still waiting for bibliographic info. for your quotes. I want to know where you got them. Not speaking for where jar himself found them, but if you're asking because you'd like to verify them, I believe that all can be found in either Mein Kampf (Message 25) or The Speeches of Adolph Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Volumes 1 and 2, edited by Norman Hepburn Baynes (Message 27, Message 29, and Message 31). Amazon links: Volume 1 and Volume 2.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Absolutely. Any ideology can be misused. The problem arises when anything becomes exclusionary, then those outside can be looked down upon as lesser people.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
In response to my saying
To try to attribute his actions to Evolution, the TOE, is as ridiculous as his distortion of Christianity you say:
I did not say that nor did I intend it. immediately followed by:
What I said was that there was, I think, a historical connection between theories of evolution and Nazism. I'm sorry but you just did it again. You attribute Nazism to the TOE. And then
I think there is a strand of thought in Nazism that is related to ideas about evolution. You just need to remember that there are far more quotes related to Hitler's perceptions of Christian Duty than related to the TOE. He was acting in what he believed was a Christian manner just as those suppressing Gays today believe it is their Christian duty. The quotes were from Mein Kampf and from a two volume book called The Speeches of Adolpf Hitler which has his speeches arranged chronologically. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
You attribute Nazism to the TOE. I think there is a connection. I don't deny that there were other influences, such as Christianity. But I'll get back to you about this matter whenever I finish Mein Kampf.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
robinrohan writes:
So, you've already come to a conclusion and you're looking for evidence to back it up? I think there is a connection.... But I'll get back to you about this matter whenever I finish Mein Kampf. In any case, it doesn't matter if there was a connection in Hitler's mind because Hitler was a loon. The topic is "Is eugenics the logical result of Darwinism?" Even if Hitler said, in Mein Kampf or elsewhere, that eugenics is the logical result of Darwinism, so what? He wasn't thinking logically. The topic is about a logical connection, not a percieved connection. People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
You're right, I'm off topic. If I find something interesting in Mein Kampf, I'll start a new thread.
I got the idea about evolutionary ideas from another book, a biography of Hitler. Unfortunately, the book does not include documentation, so I don't know exactly where the quotes from Hitler come from. So I could quote them, but I can't provide the documentation. I want to find the primary sources. But here's an example of what I'm talking about: "The basis of Hitler's political beliefs was a crude Darwinism.'Man has become great through struggle . . . Whatever goal man has reached is due to his orginality pllus his brutality . . . All life is bound up in three theses: Struggle is the father of all things, virtue lies in blood, leadership is primary and decisive.' It followed from this that 'through all the centuries force and powerare the determining factors . . . Only force rules. Force is the first law.'" The words in single quotation marks are Hitler's. from "Hitler: A Study in Tyranny," by Alan Bullock, abridged edition, page 225-6. I'm interested in finding out if "crude Darwinism" is an accurate description. So there is some basis for my tentative hypothesis, which comes from this secondary source. This message has been edited by robinrohan, 05-29-2005 12:50 PM This message has been edited by robinrohan, 05-29-2005 12:52 PM This message has been edited by robinrohan, 05-29-2005 12:52 PM
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
He could take any position and distort it to fit his perceived needs. He never learned much science and if you look at his actions, you'll see that he didn't understand science or engineering and so made really stupid decisions when it came to building weapons systems.
Hitler distorted everything. He distorted Christianity, he distorted Evolution, he distorted the concept of Nation-State, Loyalty, Sexuality. The man was a nut. The only conclusion you can draw is that Hitler was incapable of reasoned thinking. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
That's right, but the question I'm addressing is whether ideas about evolution, distorted or not, influenced Nazi ideology. Also, your idea about his Christian beliefs interest me. According to this book by Bullock, he was not sincerely Christian at all.
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