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Author Topic:   What is missing from the theory of evolution
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1169 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 31 of 68 (685201)
12-21-2012 12:55 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Genomicus
12-21-2012 12:11 AM


Re: Directed Evolution
?

I did not say that the Natural Laws were "designed."

I said the Directed Evolution was inherent in the Natural Laws which control our Evolution.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Genomicus, posted 12-21-2012 12:11 AM Genomicus has responded

Replies to this message:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1169 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 32 of 68 (685202)
12-21-2012 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Genomicus
12-21-2012 12:13 AM


Re: Directed Evolution

A very brief note concerning the phrase "directed evolution," for those interested: technically speaking, the phrase "directed evolution" generally refers to a method of designing proteins, and usually has nothing to do with the natural history of species and genomes.

Sez who?

Pierre Cardin Teilhard saw the direction of Evolution headed towards the end game of Omega Point:


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Admin
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Message 33 of 68 (685226)
12-21-2012 8:38 AM


Topic Reminder
This is a science thread in one of the science forums. Please try not to let Biblical issues intrude too much.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

    
jar
Member
Posts: 28432
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 34 of 68 (685230)
12-21-2012 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by kofh2u
12-21-2012 12:51 AM


Re: Directed Evolution
Since Revelation is totally irrelevant to this topic and refers to stuff that should have happened over 1500 years ago, No, I will not go down that rabbit hole in this thread.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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RAZD
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Posts: 18241
From: the other end of the sidewalk
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Message 35 of 68 (685240)
12-21-2012 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by kofh2u
12-21-2012 1:01 AM


Re: Directed Evolution
Hi Kofh2u

Pierre Cardin Teilhard saw the direction of Evolution headed towards the end game of Omega Point:

Not sure he saw this as evolution per se or that the omega point would be achieved by current humans. IIRC, he saw the growth of the oosphere as more of a divine force.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : i


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
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to share.


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Genomicus
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Message 36 of 68 (685241)
12-21-2012 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by kofh2u
12-21-2012 12:55 AM


Re: Directed Evolution
I said the Directed Evolution was inherent in the Natural Laws which control our Evolution.

Kewl. How would one go about testing that idea?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by kofh2u, posted 12-21-2012 12:55 AM kofh2u has responded

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RAZD
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Posts: 18241
From: the other end of the sidewalk
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Message 37 of 68 (685252)
12-21-2012 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Genomicus
12-21-2012 11:07 AM


Re: Directed Evolution
Hi Genomics,

I said the Directed Evolution was inherent in the Natural Laws which control our Evolution.

Kewl. How would one go about testing that idea?

Can't test it, it is a philosophical hypothesis, it can be considered logically valid, but it remains hypothetical.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Genomicus, posted 12-21-2012 11:07 AM Genomicus has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Taq
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Posts: 6014
Joined: 03-06-2009
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(1)
Message 38 of 68 (685255)
12-21-2012 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by kofh2u
12-20-2012 9:03 PM


Re: Directed Evolution
So you agree there is one example then, and stand corrected on the initial incredulous attitude, right?

The history of change we see in genomes is not due to human intelligence. The differences between humans and chimps is not due to guided mutations of the kind you are referencing. What we are asking about is the history of biology, and that does not include modern genetic manipulations.


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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1169 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 39 of 68 (685519)
12-23-2012 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by RAZD
12-21-2012 11:35 AM


Re: Directed Evolution

Hi Genomics,

I said the Directed Evolution was inherent in the Natural Laws which control our Evolution.

Kewl. How would one go about testing that idea?

Can't test it, it is a philosophical hypothesis, it can be considered logically valid, but it remains hypothetical.

Even if you are correct, a hypothesis is the first Scientific Step into considering an idea.

What is scientifically correct is to furnish examples where a hypothesis might explain phenomenon previously misunderstood, not explained, or explained only hypothetically with other suggestions.

I would argue that since Instincts are formed from previous life experiences of our species, they evidence an example were we "remember" things that took place in previous generations, after the people had been born, and because they found responses to certain experience were effective.

Since these experiences were decision based, i.e., a choice in response made to circumstances like snakes and spiders, say, the instinct is a mental construct that appears in our mind.

We KNOW something intuitively and instinctively which comes down to us and DIRECTS us from an ancient resouvier in our Unconscious mind.


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Replies to this message:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1169 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 40 of 68 (685522)
12-23-2012 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Genomicus
12-21-2012 11:07 AM


Re: Directed Evolution

How would one go about testing that idea?

What Jung and Freud did was reason and observe:

Carl Jung:

The Collective Unconscious is a storehouse of all the experiences of humankind transmitted to each individual.
As the repository for all past experiences, it includes even our pre-human animal ancestry.
(Assumably through the genetic processes, though unknown to Freud and Jung at the time.)

It becomes the primary base of a person's pyche, direc ting and influencing behavior.
It is the deepest and most inaccessable level of the psyche.
Jung believed that a person accumulates and files all of his past experiences, so does humankind, collectively.

Jung was supported by Freud in that Freud predicted our eventual discovery of what he called "Phylogenetic Memory."
Jung said, "the form of the world into which a person is born is already inborn in him, as a virtual image." (Jung, 1953, pg 188).


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dayalanand roy
Junior Member (Idle past 934 days)
Posts: 18
Joined: 11-27-2012


Message 41 of 68 (685977)
12-28-2012 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by kofh2u
12-20-2012 10:00 PM


Re: philosophical considerations
Many thanks for such a touchy relpy. Sorry for delayed acknowledgement. But I wish I could get in touch with you personally. We are often caught between what we have learned from our culture, society, parents, religion and what we learned from our education; or say we are often caught between our heart and our mind. But truth cannot be two. It has to be and is one. But to reach that truth, we should leave no path and opinion unsampled, if it has any slightest of appeal to our heart or mind, no matter how many times it has been held invalid in past.
This is what I feel. But I will always respect your views.
Dayalanand
This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by kofh2u, posted 12-20-2012 10:00 PM kofh2u has responded

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Admin
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Message 42 of 68 (686042)
12-28-2012 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by dayalanand roy
12-28-2012 12:01 PM


Re: philosophical considerations
dayalanand roy replying to kofh2u writes:

But I wish I could get in touch with you personally.

Click on the email link at the bottom of his message. Or send him a PM by clicking on the Send Private Message link under his name in the author column.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Larni
Member
Posts: 3932
From: UK
Joined: 09-16-2005


(1)
Message 43 of 68 (686047)
12-28-2012 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by kofh2u
12-20-2012 10:00 PM


Re: philosophical considerations
What a load of crap.

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


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DC85
Member (Idle past 1112 days)
Posts: 854
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 44 of 68 (686132)
12-29-2012 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by kofh2u
12-23-2012 9:59 AM


Re: Directed Evolution
I would argue that since Instincts are formed from previous life experiences

The defies most definitions of what instincts are. Many inherited instincts are observed and pretty constant from culture.

things that took place in previous generations, after the people had been born, and because they found responses to certain experience were effective.

It's more likely that in the pre-modern world people without such instincts died. For instance there are a number of social instincts and reactions that have proven beneficial for a complex social species, people without such traits may become outcasts or less liked within the population meaning they were less likely to reproduce. These social instincts are such a part of human behavior that we say that people without them have a disability. One example I believe is Asperger's syndrome and varying forms of it.

Since these experiences were decision based, i.e., a choice in response made to circumstances like snakes and spiders, say, the instinct is a mental construct that appears in our mind."

They are not. The decision comes from breaking the "normal" behavior.

We KNOW something intuitively and instinctively which comes down to us and DIRECTS us from an ancient resouvier in our Unconscious mind.

We are directed yes.... but by behaviors often needed to be part of a population. Those that didn't have them in the past died or were less likely to reproduce.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by kofh2u, posted 12-23-2012 9:59 AM kofh2u has responded

Replies to this message:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1169 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 45 of 68 (686133)
12-29-2012 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by DC85
12-29-2012 11:51 AM


Re: Directed Evolution

kofh
I would argue that since Instincts are formed from previous life experiences

DC
The defies most definitions of what instincts are. Many inherited instincts are observed and pretty constant from culture.

...you answered your own criticism in that "inherited instincts" means they are traits which are sourced in our genes.


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 Message 44 by DC85, posted 12-29-2012 11:51 AM DC85 has responded

Replies to this message:
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