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Author Topic:   Question for creationists: Why would you rather believe in a small God?
Alias
Member (Idle past 1058 days)
Posts: 95
From: USA
Joined: 06-21-2011


Message 271 of 301 (706051)
09-05-2013 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
09-05-2013 12:33 PM


Re: Free Agency and Time to do what is RIGHT!
Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:


First off, if the God you are describing is real, I personally hope that I am one of those that is marked for oblivion instead of eternity with an evil deity such as you describe....now onto your points.

Bravo.

Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:

So, let's add in this problem as well. So, God is all knowing, all powerful, and all loving? Correct, this is your assertion? So in this case:

1. If God is all knowing, then he would be aware that he had created an individual who was going to rape this child. This means that it created this human being with foreknowledge of the pain and suffering that would be inflicted upon an innocent child.

2. If God is all powerful, then it would be able to create an individual with free actions, that does not have the desire to harm and ruin the life of an innocent child...all-powerful=can do anything, correct? Why does free will have to give us the option to remove someone else's free will? In other words, God would be capable, being all-powerful, of preventing this atrocity.

3. If God is All-loving, God would want to prevent the rape of an innocent child. Why, then would this all knowing God even create the individual who will then eventually rape the innocent child, simply so that this God can judge him after the act has occurred?

This means that your All-Knowing, All-Powerful, All-Loving God, knowingly created an individual who would destroy another of his creation's free agency through a despicable act. Then, this All-Powerful being chose to not interfere with a rapists free will, so that the rapist could ruin an innocent child's free will...simply so that he/she/it could judge the rapist after death? Why wouldn't an all-loving God simply create an individual who would not rape a child, since after all he/she/it already knows what its creations will choose to do, being all-knowing and all. The idea of an All-Knowing, All-Powerful, All-Loving God is not possible with the condition of the universe we live in. It is not logically consistent.

Now, if you want to believe your God is not logically consistent, then there is nothing I can say to you and I just hope that you don't actually believe that your God simply chooses not to protect innocent children from rape, so that he can protect a rapists free will, just to judge him/her after death even knowing full well what the individual he created will do....All-knowing actually makes the logical consistency of your God even worse!!!

1.) I believe that god created the processes that lead up to that child being created. I don't believe that god created that child. I don't believe the bible states this in any sense either so I am not sure where you are getting that information from. Seems like you are spinning that way to suit your personal needs.

2.) Right I agree. Two points. 1.) God did create it in the beginning. Remember they were deceived a bit and that is a HUGE piece here that is not being mentioned by you. 2.) ALSO lets presume he didn't create that in the beginning; If god created beings that didn't have a specific capacity those beings would not be truly free. Also please do remember the time line deal I've mentioned in previous posts about god interfering with humanity.

3.) This point falls back onto my point 1.

This means that god created beings, initially, that fit its design to be truly free. And in time those that use that free will to do evil will be judged when the time is right according to that all knowing all powerful all loving creator god. The rest of your point is moot.

Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:

You are correct, this is not the only conclusion. However, what you are forgetting is that while many conclusions are possible, the ONLY LOGICAL conclusion is that an All-Knowing, All-Powerful, All-Loving Creator God cannot exist with the current state of affairs.

Based on your limited thought and perspective.

Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:

I am actually sickened and appalled that this is how you choose to answer this...It is an act of love toward the rapist, but an act of evil to do nothing to protect the child. This is what you want your God to do? I am so glad your God refuses to remove the free agency from those who would do us (especially children) harm, even though he chose to create them knowing full well what they would do....real loving figure you have there.

You didn't actually quote what I said correctly, you hand picked it out and tried to manipulate what was actually said. I was saying that it is a gift of love to have free agency but people are evil and use it incorrectly. IF you put it in the correct context you would be being a good person, apparently you are not a good person. You like to take what people say out of context and make them look bad. FYI: This is evil. Deception is evil. If you continue this practice in our conversation I will not respond to you anymore, anyone reading this post be aware.

Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:

This line right here actually makes me slightly angry. It is not my personal problem that I cannot see love in the indifference to suffering of your feeble God. Rather, I look for ways in which humanity can protect the weakest among us, something your God would do if it actually loved people. Your All-Loving God wants innocent children to be tested by being raped or shot? Take the rape example, a child who suffers this fate is at risk of becoming that which destroyed his/her free will and innocence, so God's test can actually create another rapist to perpetuate the cycle. Terribly designed test, yet you glibly accept it as something that must happen. Stop attributing it to a deity and let's find a way to fix the problem ourselves....cause your God don't seem to love us enough to do anything.

It is your personal problem. I was pointing out the acceptance of "god's will" not "your thought" that you try to look for ways to help people. IF you are actually trying to help people than you would quote me correctly but yet again you're not keeping what I said in the right context. Don't be evil. IT is clear I was talking about god helping people and acceptance of his methods. I was not talking about the acceptance of what people do and their methods. What people do that shows them to be good people is good in gods eyes i'm sure.

Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:

If it is your version of God that I see, I am definitely going to try and punch him/her/it in the face for allowing all the atrocities that have occurred, all while he/she/it claimed to be all-loving. I would tell him/her/it to look at the lives of those who actually helped people and explain how they are better than he/she/it is. Finally, I would beg never to spend eternity in a realm with a being as evil as the God you portray, I would rather be non-existent or suffer for eternity than dwell with a being who has the ability to stop a child from being raped, but instead considers rape a test for an innocent child.

I am trying to show a model for a all powerful all loving all knowing creator god, how it is possible, logical, that it does exist and this is how it exists... Please remember that its ways and thoughts would be above our ways and thoughts when you conclude. There would be a lot that I would not understand within that context as I am human.

Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:


LIES! It is not ONLY secular folk who rape innocent children. I am pretty sure I should not even need to post examples of this, but if you would like, I will gladly take the three minutes it would take to find article after article about what denomination individuals are who have taken the innocence of a child...this is a blatant falsehood and you should retract it immediately. And the fact that you take their religion away does not apply to whether or not they are religious. If a rapist claims he/she is religious, then he/she is religious. You cannot just remove people from your group because it will make your group look better. The individual's claim is to be a theist, who are you to mess with their "Free Agency"?

No not really. I think it would be pretty stupid if a person that knew god's power and still yet chose to do evil. This is why I am saying it is secular individuals that commit evil most of the time because it is logical. They don't know god's power. 1+1 = 2. They have NOTHING TO FEAR, right? Of course no fear is not the only reason why people do evil sometimes they are just dark or blind... I am also saying that if there are claimed theists out there that choose to do EVIL they are NOT theists of any kind in reality more like blind theist which is not the same. I don't believe god is evil either so anyone claiming to be a theist of anykind and claiming that evil is righteous is not a theist either. They would be worshipping darkness not god. This is the way I spin it anyway. I do realize that there are people that I see as evil/or that are doing a lot of evil currently such as islamic radicals/fascists but I don't know that they are actually god fearing, god worshipping, worshipping darkness, or just blind. This I am just not sure about. FYI: I am not claiming that secularist are evil at all I just think they are more prone to do actual evil as per the reasons above.

Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:

It is not love, and anyone who cannot see that is blind to what loving one another actually is. However, I am in agreement that many criminals can be rehabilitated and I believe our country needs to look for better methods, especially in mental health treatment, that can bring about the changes individuals need to live decent, loving lives. A criminal act is not the sign of evil, but should be looked at with honesty. However, creating someone who you know will create a criminal act and then allowing that criminal act to take place, destroying the life of a child, is an evil act. So, as you stated, "True Evil needs time". Well, your God has had plenty of time to perfect it, and he/she/it seems to be a pretty solid picture of what evil is at this time.

Then we disagree on love. Glad we agree on the other part. Oh and remember freedom is freedom, if you create beings that are limited they are not actually free (mentally of course cus we don't have wings, etc).

Edited by Alias, : err

Edited by Alias, : edit

Edited by Alias, : edit

Edited by Alias, : edit

Edited by Alias, : edit

Edited by Alias, : changed "build" to"show" under the 6th resp paragraph


Thanks
Alias :-)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 09-05-2013 12:33 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by Theodoric, posted 09-05-2013 2:25 PM Alias has responded
 Message 274 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 09-05-2013 3:15 PM Alias has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5765
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 272 of 301 (706054)
09-05-2013 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by Alias
09-05-2013 1:40 PM


Re: Free Agency and Time to do what is RIGHT!
So according to the argument you just laid out, this god character is not all knowing.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Alias, posted 09-05-2013 1:40 PM Alias has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by Alias, posted 09-05-2013 3:03 PM Theodoric has responded

    
Alias
Member (Idle past 1058 days)
Posts: 95
From: USA
Joined: 06-21-2011


Message 273 of 301 (706056)
09-05-2013 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by Theodoric
09-05-2013 2:25 PM


Re: Free Agency and Time to do what is RIGHT!
What would be the point of making a broken plane that can't fly if you wanted it to fly? This is reality and in it there are limits. It does not quantify to god not being all knowing. If god wanted the plane to fly within this reality he would make it not broken and able to fly according to this reality. This is logical.

Edited by Alias, : edit


Thanks
Alias :-)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Theodoric, posted 09-05-2013 2:25 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 09-05-2013 3:18 PM Alias has responded
 Message 284 by Theodoric, posted 09-05-2013 6:35 PM Alias has responded

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member
Posts: 436
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 274 of 301 (706057)
09-05-2013 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by Alias
09-05-2013 1:40 PM


Re: Free Agency and Time to do what is RIGHT!
Fine, I will quote every bit you wrote on everything, even though most of it was simply rationalization of your points, while I simply tried to pick out the thesis of each statement. Maybe I was incorrect, but trust me, we are going to go through each and every one of your points now, from both this message and the previous. I do not want to misquote you, I was just trying to cut down on the amount of space taken up by the post...but, oh well.....here comes a super long post, then.

Starting with point number 1:

Alias writes:

1.) I believe that god created the processes that lead up to that child being created. I don't believe that god created that child. I don't believe the bible states this in any sense either so I am not sure where you are getting that information from. Seems like you are spinning that way to suit your personal needs.

All-Knowing=Knowing everything. Even if natural processes are how human beings came about in your scenario, your God still knows that a specific process will ultimately end in the creation of a rapist that will destroy the innocence of a child. Prior to birth of the rapist, your God could have known which evolutionary line would lead to the rapist and snipped that line at any point, he knew what would happen and allowed it to occur. However, he chooses to not do so which shows a lack of love for the child, while simultaneously showing love to the rapist by allowing him/her Free Agency. Either a created rapist or a created through God's natural process rapist, your God is ultimately responsible because he/she/it would have foreknowledge of the results of his cosmic experiment. In other words, he knows from the beginning about every rapist and the decisions they will make to rape...yet allows it. Again, if that's loving us, it is logically inconsistent.

Now, onto point number 2:

Alias writes:

2.) Right I agree. Two points. 1.) God did create it in the beginning. Remember they were deceived a bit and that is a HUGE piece here that is not being mentioned by you. 2.) ALSO lets presume he didn't create that in the beginning; If god created beings that didn't have a specific capacity those beings would not be truly free. Also please do remember the time line deal I've mentioned in previous posts about god interfering with humanity.

They were deceived? Are we bringing the Fall of Mankind into this now as well? Well, guess what the Fall is unimportant to the personage of God. We are not discussing the evils of humanity, a subject I would agree with you on, but rather the fact that your God, with conditions as they are, cannot be All-Knowing, All-Powerful, and All-Loving all that same time. It is not logically consistent...sometimes he is all-knowing, but allowing a child to be raped, which is not loving. Sometimes, he is all-loving such as giving humans Free Agency, but not all-powerful because he would have known the acts that he would have to judge in advance and could have avoided the pain and suffering in the first place. There is a logical inconsistency that exists that can't be avoided simply by saying, "Well, God knows more than we do." Passing the buck to an unevidenced deity is not logical.

Now, point number 3, you claimed was answer by point 1...but the main point in three was that God allows someone to live already knowing the crimes they will commit. He could avoid the suffering the innocent child will feel simply by bringing judgment before the crime...after all, unlike us, he already knows what will be done, right? Rather, he chooses to allow the crime, knowing full well all damage that will be done. This does not portray a loving individual toward anyone except the rapist and is a terrible example of how to love someone.

Alias writes:

This means that god created beings, initially, that fit its design to be truly free. And in time those that use that free will to do evil will be judged when the time is right according to that all knowing god all powerful all loving creator god. The rest of your point is moot.

So, an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving God, created beings (through his planned natural processes) to be free...."All-knowing" full well that many humans would use that freedom to harm others...but even knowing that these terrible tragedies would happen, went ahead with the plan anyway? Why would this God not rethink his plan? Perhaps put in some system of balances that would allow for maximum freedom, with minimum pain. Unless, of course he is not all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-loving.

BTW, not against the idea that a God exists (although, currently I have no evidence for it), but the God you describe is still not logically consistent.

Now, onto the next point:

Based on your limited thought and perspective.

No, based on the only level of thought and perspective we are capable of, which is logical and rational thought. Again, if you want your God to be irrational and illogical, feel free. However, don't feel piled upon when we point out how your God is inconsistent with the facts that we observe in the world. After all, with every point we have brought up, you have had to hand-wave it away because of some unevidenced proposition, such as Free Agency, simply because your God does not fit with the logical actions of a rational, all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving being. No, God didn't want the innocent child to get raped, he just had to let it happen because he could not interfere with the rapists' free agency. But, he's got no problem with the rapist removing the child's free agency...really, Alias?

Next Point:

Stile writes:

Free agency cannot be a gift of love if it results in the rape of an innocent child.

Alias writes:

Yes it is a huge gift of love to be able to do what one feels but also to not be a robot. In my mind I think of a god that is giving me the chance to do what is right without it controlling me. It is about the heart of humanity not the heart of god (we are being tested). IT is a test (to reward with eternity). Those that choose to do evil will probably be blotted out from existence along with all evil (all powerful all knowing all loving creator god).

12ft writes:

I am actually sickened and appalled that this is how you choose to answer this...It is an act of love toward the rapist, but an act of evil to do nothing to protect the child. This is what you want your God to do? I am so glad your God refuses to remove the free agency from those who would do us (especially children) harm, even though he chose to create them knowing full well what they would do....real loving figure you have there.

There you go, quoted in its entirety.

So, your statement reads that free agency is a gift of love and that because of that an all-loving individual should allow a child to be raped. You are happy with future judgment, but that does not show love. That still allows the child to be raped! How on Earth can you not see this. In your scenario, your God is showing love to the rapist by refusing to remove his free agency (Sure, he'll punish him/her after the fact of what God already knew he/she would do), but is showing a lack of love to the child, who has to suffer the rape, plus the loss of his/her free agency, whilst the rapist gets to keep his free agency. I would like a clear and concise way that allowing this to happen is showing love to the innocent child?!?

Also, in your response to what you claimed was a quote mine rather than just pointing out your thesis and proceeding, you stated (Don't worry, I'll include it all):

Alias writes:

You didn't actually quote what I said correctly, you hand picked it out and tried to manipulate what was actually said. I was saying that it is a gift of love to have free agency but people are evil and use it incorrectly. IF you put it in the correct context you would be being a good person, apparently you are not a good person. You like to take what people say out of context and make them look bad. FYI: This is evil. Deception is evil. If you continue this practice in our conversation I will not respond to you any anyone reading this post be aware.

First off, you have no idea who I am, and you have zero right to call me not a good person. I have made no claims against you, but rather against the God you are putting up for discussion. So, let's keep the discussion on the topic and avoid talking about one another in a negative fashion. (And trust me, with your statements in this thread, I am holding a lot back) In the correct context, I have already shown that your statement shows love to a rapist, but not to the child who had his free agency removed. In the scenario, your God cared more that he did not intervene, rather than ensure the child's free agency and not the rapist's. In other words, your god chose the rapist. How is this all-loving?

Also, at the end of your statement above, you put:

Alias writes:

FYI: This is evil. Deception is evil. If you continue this practice in our conversation I will not respond to you any anyone reading this post be aware.

(quoted with the full quote above as well, not quote mined)

However, even you stated that evil takes time to spot, not that you can blatantly charge another person with it (such as Criminal activity not being evil). So, lets leave calling one another evil out of this discussion as well, okay? After all, this thread is about how the only logically possible God is a smaller version than that portrayed by religions.

Next point, which you claimed I quote-mined:

Alias writes:

Please don't forget the "all knowing god". Hence all powerful all knowing and all loving creator god. Do not make this about me it is about you failing to see the BIG picture. Children getting rapped will have justice served (in time because again god is not a hypocrite and we have free agency plus god is all knowing). ALSO let me remind you how small our existence is in the scheme of eternity. As I've pointed out in previous post this is a temporary existence a small existence to test humanity and it comes with certain costs. Whether or not you can accept that point as a reason for children getting raped, people getting shot in the face, children getting shot in the face which I just heard recently on the news, and so on then that is your personal problem. In my mind I assign meaning and reason to those things because they are terrible and that is they will have justice served by god in the end and get to be rewarded with eternal life by that god who is all knowing all powerful all loving creator god. Those that have done evil will be completely blotted out from existence (if I understand correctly but if not they will be in torment for a very very long time) and justice will be served. Another point if god still does not blot out evil in my full opinion god is trying to love those that have done evil by giving them yet another chance.... I don't know that this will take place but probably will since god is all knowing all loving all powerful creator god.

12ft writes:

This line right here actually makes me slightly angry. It is not my personal problem that I cannot see love in the indifference to suffering of your feeble God. Rather, I look for ways in which humanity can protect the weakest among us, something your God would do if it actually loved people. Your All-Loving God wants innocent children to be tested by being raped or shot? Take the rape example, a child who suffers this fate is at risk of becoming that which destroyed his/her free will and innocence, so God's test can actually create another rapist to perpetuate the cycle. Terribly designed test, yet you glibly accept it as something that must happen. Stop attributing it to a deity and let's find a way to fix the problem ourselves....cause your God don't seem to love us enough to do anything.

Alias writes:

It is your personal problem. I was pointing out the acceptance of gods will not your thought that you try to look for ways to help people. IF you are actually trying to help people than you would quote me correctly but yet again you're not keeping what I said in the right context. Don't be evil. IT is clear I was talking about god helping people and acceptance of his methods. I was not talking about the acceptance of what people do and their methods. What people do that shows them to be good people is good in gods eyes i'm sure.

You are missing the entire point. Justice in time is what we as humans can offer a child who is raped. We can catch the criminal, put him/her on trial and ensure that the child can receive the best justice that we can give. God, on the other hand, according to you is All-Powerful (can do anything), All-knowing (knows the child is going to be raped), and All-Loving (Yet, for some reason this one you have put onto giving the rapist free agency, instead of protecting the innocent child), yet he does nothing, simply as you put it to "avoid being a hypocrite". Your All-Loving God is more concerned with being a hypocrite toward a rapist then with protecting an innocent child from being raped, and you call this All-Loving? I cannot, nor will I, lower my standards of what love means to even begin to entertain that idea.

Also, you have yet to have any answer to the last point that I made, so I would like a response, please (since i am being so nice as to ensure I don't misquote you):

12ft writes:

Your All-Loving God wants innocent children to be tested by being raped or shot? Take the rape example, a child who suffers this fate is at risk of becoming that which destroyed his/her free will and innocence, so God's test can actually create another rapist to perpetuate the cycle. Terribly designed test, yet you glibly accept it as something that must happen. Stop attributing it to a deity and let's find a way to fix the problem ourselves....cause your God don't seem to love us enough to do anything.

My question is at the end there, although worded as a statement. Let me reword as a question for you:

Why don't we stop attributing things to a logically inconsistent deity and find a way to fix these problems ourselves? Because, I am pretty sure that for the most part, if people saw a child getting raped, they would damn sure try and stop it. Something that your God cannot do without being a hypocrite toward a rapist.

Alias writes:

I am trying to build a model for a all powerful all loving all knowing creator god and how it is possible and logical that it does exist and this is how it exists... Please remember that its ways and thoughts would be above our ways and thoughts when you conclude. There would be a lot that I would not understand within that context as I am human.

You are trying, however you are failing miserably at portraying anything but a God who either:

A. Doesn't love us, but is able to be all powerful and all-knowing

B. Loves us, knows what will happen, but is powerless to stop it

C. Loves us, is powerful enough to stop things, but is unaware of what will happen.

or

D. A Loving, Powerful, Knowing God. (Notice the lack of All before all of those words)

When you try to combine all three things, All-Loving, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, the logic simply breaks down based solely upon the observations of the world around us. I could at least picture any of the options I gave you, although i would not be convinced of their existence without evidence to support the hypothesis. However, your option is logically inconsistent because it requires God to be indifferent to suffering (allowing a child to be raped, knowing full well it will happen) which removes all-loving, or not able to stop it (By God not being able to be a hypocrite, God is not powerful enough to stop suffering), which removes all-powerful, or has no idea what is going on and so his power and love can't be brought to bear, so not all-knowing. Combining all three of those ideas with observation of the REAL world shows just how illogical your god is.

Caught you in another lie in my next point, so let's move on:

Alias writes:

I called free agency a act of gods love, clearly you are blind. However I would conclude that it is secular folk that rape children. I don't believe for a minute that people who fear god would do such a thing. Anyone that does such a thing and claiming to be a theist is not really a theist. Your argument that disrespects god fearing people is failing. As for your joke, it shows your actual thoughts. Typically jokes show the comedians comical sense. Would you please think of the children (seriously)? Why would you joke about such a thing!

12ft writes:

LIES! It is not ONLY secular folk who rape innocent children. I am pretty sure I should not even need to post examples of this, but if you would like, I will gladly take the three minutes it would take to find article after article about what denomination individuals are who have taken the innocence of a child...this is a blatant falsehood and you should retract it immediately. And the fact that you take their religion away does not apply to whether or not they are religious. If a rapist claims he/she is religious, then he/she is religious. You cannot just remove people from your group because it will make your group look better. The individual's claim is to be a theist, who are you to mess with their "Free Agency"?

Alias writes:

No not really. I think it would be pretty stupid if a person that knew gods power and still yet chose to do evil. This is why I am saying it is secular individuals that commit evil most of the time because it is logical. 1+1 = 2. I am also saying that if there are theists out there that choose to do EVIL they are NOT theists of any kind. This is the way I spin it anyway. I do realize that there people that I see as evil/or that are doing a lot of evil currently such as islamic radicals/fascists but I don't know that they are actually god fearing or just blind. This I am just not sure about.

The lie you are caught in is between your first statement of:

"However I would conclude that it is secular folk that rape children."

When in the next comment, you state:

"This is why I am saying it is secular individuals that commit evil most of the time because it is logical."

Where was the most of the time in the first mention of this? You attempted to shovel all blame onto those who are secular, plus attempted to remove individuals from your group because you choose for them that they are not religious. Then, when it was mentioned you tried to hide the fact by including the word most in your comment. First, I still demand you officially retract your statement from before of "It is secular folk who rape children" because it is hateful and not factual. Also, it is not your choice whether or not a person is religious, especially considering that they have Free agency according to you.

So, while I thought that finding examples of this was redundant and asinine, I guess here we go, into the hall of religious child rapists:

One Story

Two Stories

Three Stories

Do I need to keep going. And remember, these people have free agency to say and believe what they want...They say they are religious, they are definitely not secular. Sorry, but thems the breaks. You do not get to force them to be secular so that your group looks better. That is deception as well, to return to your earlier mention of it.

Alias writes:

Then we disagree on what love is... Glad we agree on the other part. Oh and remember freedom is freedom, if you create beings that are limited they are not free (mentally of course cus we don't have wings, etc)

But, we are not mentally free. There are impositions of morality, even upon a person who is an atheist such as myself. Now, I am not sure if it is your claim, but I have heard, many times, that these morals are an imprint from God in our spirit. If this is your claim (which you will have to clarify), then God has chosen to impede by giving us a moral compass, but not impede to remove the free agency of the rapist in these examples. So, God is choosing to provide limits in one regard (morals imprinted on humanity), but not in another that eventually destroys an innocent child (the rapist).

Again, Alias, I ask, "How on Earth can this be seen as All-Loving"?!?!?!


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov

If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson

What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Alias, posted 09-05-2013 1:40 PM Alias has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by Alias, posted 09-05-2013 3:43 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not yet responded
 Message 281 by Alias, posted 09-05-2013 5:48 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not yet responded

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member
Posts: 436
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 275 of 301 (706058)
09-05-2013 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by Alias
09-05-2013 3:03 PM


Re: Free Agency and Time to do what is RIGHT!
Alias writes:

What would be the point of making a broken plane that can't fly if you wanted it to fly? This is reality and in it there are limits. It does not quantify to god not being all knowing. If god wanted the plane to fly he has to make it not broken and able to fly. This is logical.

Then he is not All-Powerful? Because, instead he chose to give us free agency, knowing full well (being All-Knowing) what much of humanity would do with it. In other words He could only make a broken plane to try and fly and humanity has to try and fix it. This is the scenario you are describing.


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov

If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson

What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Alias, posted 09-05-2013 3:03 PM Alias has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by Alias, posted 09-05-2013 3:50 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has responded
 Message 280 by Theodoric, posted 09-05-2013 5:05 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not yet responded

  
Alias
Member (Idle past 1058 days)
Posts: 95
From: USA
Joined: 06-21-2011


Message 276 of 301 (706060)
09-05-2013 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
09-05-2013 3:15 PM


Re: Free Agency and Time to do what is RIGHT!
I will respond in a bit...
This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 09-05-2013 3:15 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not yet responded

  
Alias
Member (Idle past 1058 days)
Posts: 95
From: USA
Joined: 06-21-2011


Message 277 of 301 (706061)
09-05-2013 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
09-05-2013 3:18 PM


Re: Free Agency and Time to do what is RIGHT!
I seem to remember hearing atheists say things like pink bunnies didn't create everything and then they go to compare it to biblical thought... Point: in this reality there are restrictions and god knows them and if god breaks them there is consequences. I was not saying god would create something broken and man would have to fix it. Lol. Reread. And that would not make him less powerful. Lol. It's choice. Fyi: god's ways are higher than our ways. Oh and yes he chose to give us free agency which is loving IMO.

Edited by Alias, : Edit

Edited by Alias, : Edit

Edited by Alias, : No reason given.

Edited by Alias, : Edit


Thanks
Alias :-)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 09-05-2013 3:18 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 09-05-2013 4:00 PM Alias has responded

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member
Posts: 436
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 278 of 301 (706062)
09-05-2013 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by Alias
09-05-2013 3:50 PM


Re: Free Agency and Time to do what is RIGHT!
Alias writes:

I seem to remember hearing atheists say things like pink bunnies didn't create everything and then they go to compare it to biblical thought... Point: in this reality there are restrictions and god knows them and if god breaks them there is consequences. I was not saying god would create something broken and man would have to fix it. Lol. Reread. And that would not make him less powerful. Lol. It's choice. Fyi: god's ways are higher than our ways. Oh and yes he chose to give us free agency which is loving IMO.

But, my point was that our Free Agency is broken because there are several examples of it being used to create atrocities. I was using your analogy.

Theodoric stated God was not All-Knowing, and you used the plane analogy to show that this is not the correct decision, God knew he should not make a broken plane if he wanted it to fly.

Yet, when he went to make humankind (through natural processes), he installed a free agency that is broken because it allows for these atrocities. So, he either knew it was broken and was not powerful enough to give us a version that would not be broken, and these atrocities would not happen. In this scenario he is All-Knowing, but not All-Powerful.

Or, he was All-Powerful and installed the best he could, but was unaware that the process was broken. In this case he would be All-Powerful, but not All-Knowing.

In either case, we got stuck with a broken system (Free Agency/Plane) and it is up to humanity to fix the problem through increasing our own awareness of a moral society and proper moral actions between one another. Unless, God would want to help, which one would think he would, if he were All-Loving, especially considering the broken system was installed by him.

Edited by Tempe 12ft Chicken, : No reason given.


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov

If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson

What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Alias, posted 09-05-2013 3:50 PM Alias has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by Alias, posted 09-05-2013 4:27 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not yet responded

  
Alias
Member (Idle past 1058 days)
Posts: 95
From: USA
Joined: 06-21-2011


Message 279 of 301 (706064)
09-05-2013 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
09-05-2013 4:00 PM


Re: Free Agency and Time to do what is RIGHT!
Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:

But, my point was that our Free Agency is broken because there are several examples of it being used to create atrocities. I was using your analogy.

Using free agency to commit atrocities does not mean it is broken. This is something that is possible with free agency and I'm sure god is aware of it hence why it took the power to live forever away from man in genesis 3. The idea behind it is, god is working with humanity effectively creating beings that are loving and that love freely without being controlled. At least that is the spin I am following. It does permit a lot of evil which is why there is going to be a judgement to blot it out and also why we apparently have so much time. It is not that god does not have the power to stop it or that it does not love enough because it does not stop it, etc it is just simply it has a plan laid out. Please do keep in mind that within scripture there is several times when man is called to be good and not evil with freedom. God is acting like a mentor not like a boss, even though there will be judgement if humanity is going to be evil. It's rather complex. Point just because evil exist does not only quantify that a all powerful all knowing all loving creator god does not exist, it COULD just mean he has a plan setup and is sticking to that plan hence the all knowing side of it. When you ask questions and get answers that don't seem logical now, I feel they will be logical in time. This is where I am coming from. Oh and free agency is not broken because humanity is evil, IMO true free agency permits anything to happen including evil. True free agency does not restrict at all. I would be more inclined to think that god created everything as it is and knew of the potential good/bad and then is going to judge it down the road to remove the bad vs atheism. If I was the god that is a all powerful all knowing all loving creator god then I would probably have a lot more to tell you on that particular topic. However I am not just going to conclude that this is not possible or not logical, etc just because I don't know. This is exactly what atheism does, in absence of information it concludes god is not possible. The rest of your point is moot IMO.

Edited by Alias, : edit

Edited by Alias, : edit

Edited by Alias, : last update


Thanks
Alias :-)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 09-05-2013 4:00 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5765
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(2)
Message 280 of 301 (706066)
09-05-2013 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
09-05-2013 3:18 PM


Re: Free Agency and Time to do what is RIGHT!
So his god is not omniscient or omnipotent. And I guess omnipresent is out of the question also.

Maybe he doesn't understand the meaning of words.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 09-05-2013 3:18 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by Alias, posted 09-05-2013 5:49 PM Theodoric has responded

    
Alias
Member (Idle past 1058 days)
Posts: 95
From: USA
Joined: 06-21-2011


Message 281 of 301 (706068)
09-05-2013 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
09-05-2013 3:15 PM


Re: Free Agency and Time to do what is RIGHT!
Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:


All-Knowing=Knowing everything. Even if natural processes are how human beings came about in your scenario, your God still knows that a specific process will ultimately end in the creation of a rapist that will destroy the innocence of a child. Prior to birth of the rapist, your God could have known which evolutionary line would lead to the rapist and snipped that line at any point, he knew what would happen and allowed it to occur. However, he chooses to not do so which shows a lack of love for the child, while simultaneously showing love to the rapist by allowing him/her Free Agency. Either a created rapist or a created through God's natural process rapist, your God is ultimately responsible because he/she/it would have foreknowledge of the results of his cosmic experiment. In other words, he knows from the beginning about every rapist and the decisions they will make to rape...yet allows it. Again, if that's loving us, it is logically inconsistent.

Perhaps if god cuts out a specific part of data during creation it does not grant real free agency. Hence all knowing. The rest of your point is moot in this context.

Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:

They were deceived? Are we bringing the Fall of Mankind into this now as well? Well, guess what the Fall is unimportant to the personage of God. We are not discussing the evils of humanity, a subject I would agree with you on, but rather the fact that your God, with conditions as they are, cannot be All-Knowing, All-Powerful, and All-Loving all that same time. It is not logically consistent...sometimes he is all-knowing, but allowing a child to be raped, which is not loving. Sometimes, he is all-loving such as giving humans Free Agency, but not all-powerful because he would have known the acts that he would have to judge in advance and could have avoided the pain and suffering in the first place. There is a logical inconsistency that exists that can't be avoided simply by saying, "Well, God knows more than we do." Passing the buck to an unevidenced deity is not logical.

I don't understand your point on the fall of mankind. I do think it is important because we are discussing why humanity is evil. Humanity is responsible for its evil not god. Humanity was given free agency and used it to do evil. It is not the other way around. Giving humanity freedom is loving. Again; if humanity is evil with that freedom it is humanities fault not god's and that point does not negate god's love. God has tried to influence humanity over and over in the bible yet humanity is evil. IF you have read any of my posts you would understand how that works. If not I will repeat it. God is going to judge humanity after a set amount of time. FYI: God's ways are higher than our ways and I can use that because it does make sense hence it being a god...

Lol. Are you serious? Free agency is the opposite of pre crime. Even if god thought hey this may happen he granted us free agency to see what we would do with it. Giving us a chance to do what is right. You can't judge something until after the crime has been committed. This is perhaps why god does things the way it does them. Why don't you try to spend time thinking of ways how it is possible that god exists and why it does things the way it does them instead of spending time thinking about how since god does not do it my way it just does not exist! Lol...

Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:


So, an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving God, created beings (through his planned natural processes) to be free...."All-knowing" full well that many humans would use that freedom to harm others...but even knowing that these terrible tragedies would happen, went ahead with the plan anyway? Why would this God not rethink his plan? Perhaps put in some system of balances that would allow for maximum freedom, with minimum pain. Unless, of course he is not all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-loving.

BTW, not against the idea that a God exists (although, currently I have no evidence for it), but the God you describe is still not logically consistent.

You would need to ask god your questions and have faith it will answer then start watching for extremely odd coincidences and instead of coining them coincidence coin them revelation. In a sense this is one difference between atheism and thesm. Evidence is all over especially in science. Can you explain how elements became amino acids, polypeptides, proteins, cells, tissues, organs, organ systems, beings, and the like? Not a single part of the toe can explain any of that. It breaks down at the formation of amino acids with it is very unlikely that natural processes created them even though it could happen it seems to only happen under intelligent intervention such as in labs.

Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:


No, based on the only level of thought and perspective we are capable of, which is logical and rational thought. Again, if you want your God to be irrational and illogical, feel free. However, don't feel piled upon when we point out how your God is inconsistent with the facts that we observe in the world. After all, with every point we have brought up, you have had to hand-wave it away because of some unevidenced proposition, such as Free Agency, simply because your God does not fit with the logical actions of a rational, all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving being. No, God didn't want the innocent child to get raped, he just had to let it happen because he could not interfere with the rapists' free agency. But, he's got no problem with the rapist removing the child's free agency...really, Alias?

No it is based on your thought and those that support your thought. There are plenty of people out there including scientist that work for nasa that are theists. If you are claiming that the only logical thought and rational thought is ONLY your vantage then you are extremely closed minded and not a scientist as in science the most extreme imaginations have help shape theories like the TOE, the multiverse theory, big bang theory, and to try and explain gravity, etc only to come up extremely short. Clearly since science is coming up extremely short it has something wrong. Science has gone from thinking our planet is flat to knowing it is not, from thinking we live in 1 universe to thinking we live in a multi verse. To thinking that space is subject to gravity and then to thinking gravity is subject to space because space bends, etc. The imagination is what leads science in a very BIG way. IS it really so inconceivable that god is real and that it is involved in the creation of existence? or is it just easier to say "just because we don't understand it does not mean god did it" all day long? I feel it is good to think of ways how god actually could exist instead of beating in atheism and just accepting it because there is a small group of people running around on planet earth claiming there is no god and their thoughts are the MOST logical and rational. Lol... I think freely and will continue to think that way unaffected by any other tide of thought unless I agree with it.

ALSO a god existing is completely consistent with all the facts from the fossil record, biology, chemistry, physics, to whatever evidence you want to toss out there... I have found nothing that screams god does not exist. Nothing. I have found that belief is the mind of the person I am having the discussion with and has nothing to do with logic or rational thinking (I mean that rational thinking does not quantify to truth all the time). In fact most of the time when people scream god does not exist and that is more rational and logical it is actually not logical at all. Everything from nothing, really??? Are you kidding me?? One great piece of evidence of a god creator is living cells and everything that is going on inside of them. Another great piece of evidence is living beings and everything that goes on inside of them from being able to see, think, hear, smell, taste, be aware, fight off disease, etc. The fossil record and the way it is buried does not scream evolution that is a interpretation, it just screams creation. The order of creation is not important at all as it is clear in the bible we have two different orders if you read gen 1 and 2, so in science we are merely discovering the actual order of things. Honestly it just depends on how you spin things and logic can be completely logical in two different ways. It is just a matter of what vantage a person has of the facts. Perhaps gravity is better explained/observed further out in space than near a planet. OR perhaps it is better understood on a planet than it is out in space. Different vantages bring different contrasting understandings. What is logical from one vantage is not so logical from another, etc. Point; atheism is not more logical than theism. IMO theism is way more logical than atheism.

Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:


So, your statement reads that free agency is a gift of love and that because of that an all-loving individual should allow a child to be raped. You are happy with future judgment, but that does not show love. That still allows the child to be raped! How on Earth can you not see this. In your scenario, your God is showing love to the rapist by refusing to remove his free agency (Sure, he'll punish him/her after the fact of what God already knew he/she would do), but is showing a lack of love to the child, who has to suffer the rape, plus the loss of his/her free agency, whilst the rapist gets to keep his free agency. I would like a clear and concise way that allowing this to happen is showing love to the innocent child?!?

No it reads:

Yes it is a huge gift of love to be able to do what one feels but also to not be a robot. In my mind I think of a god that is giving me the chance to do what is right without it controlling me. It is about the heart of humanity not the heart of god (we are being tested). IT is a test (to reward with eternity). Those that choose to do evil will probably be blotted out from existence along with all evil (all powerful all knowing all loving creator god).

SO you should be understanding that I meant "free agency" is a gift of love from god instead of being a robot and not knowing the difference. And that in my mind I think of a god that is giving me the chance to do what is right without it controlling me. It is about the heart of humanity not the heart of god. That this choice thing is a test to see if I will make the right choice. What the hell are you talking about???? To answer your point though, an all loving individual should not allow a child to be raped hell no. That is why there is judgement. We are given the choice to do what is right. God wont judge us until we actually do something wrong. AND that does not take away a childs free agency. IF it did the child would not be able to continue living FREE. It was a crime, it was evil and the evil doer will be punished. Eff pre crime. That is a terrible idea and eff being a robot. I want to be free and given the chance to do what is right. This is loving in my mind. IT is also completely logical. IF you want to live in a country where you are controlled go live in one if you don't like being given the chance to do what is right as we have here in america. Innocent until PROVEN guilty. DUH! TO hell with totalitarian thought.

Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:


First off, you have no idea who I am, and you have zero right to call me not a good person. I have made no claims against you, but rather against the God you are putting up for discussion. So, let's keep the discussion on the topic and avoid talking about one another in a negative fashion. (And trust me, with your statements in this thread, I am holding a lot back) In the correct context, I have already shown that your statement shows love to a rapist, but not to the child who had his free agency removed. In the scenario, your God cared more that he did not intervene, rather than ensure the child's free agency and not the rapist's. In other words, your god chose the rapist. How is this all-loving?

You made a clear choice to manipulate my post and it failed you. Then you did it again in your last post. Please quote me in the context. IF you continue to do that then I will judge you in my mind as doing evil because you were being deceptive. Luckily this forum does not delete posts and acts kinda like nature in that what people say can be tested to show them as liars or truth sayers.

Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:


However, even you stated that evil takes time to spot, not that you can blatantly charge another person with it (such as Criminal activity not being evil). So, lets leave calling one another evil out of this discussion as well, okay? After all, this thread is about how the only logically possible God is a smaller version than that portrayed by religions.

Hence why I pointed it out that you were being evil. I was pointing out the act I did'nt say YOU ARE EVIL. I said it is evil. I gave you a chance to correct your behavior to see if you are evil or good. Seems like you are simply taking what I am saying out of context, which is a good thing because I would love to continue this conversation. Oh and no problem I will leave it out as long as I don't spot evil. If I spot evil I will call it out.

Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:


You are missing the entire point. Justice in time is what we as humans can offer a child who is raped. We can catch the criminal, put him/her on trial and ensure that the child can receive the best justice that we can give. God, on the other hand, according to you is All-Powerful (can do anything), All-knowing (knows the child is going to be raped), and All-Loving (Yet, for some reason this one you have put onto giving the rapist free agency, instead of protecting the innocent child), yet he does nothing, simply as you put it to "avoid being a hypocrite". Your All-Loving God is more concerned with being a hypocrite toward a rapist then with protecting an innocent child from being raped, and you call this All-Loving? I cannot, nor will I, lower my standards of what love means to even begin to entertain that idea.

This model you speak of is biblical in root. That is why we do things that way and it is the RIGHT way to do them. Hence probably why god does them that way all throughout the bible.

Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:


You are trying, however you are failing miserably at portraying anything but a God who either:

A. Doesn't love us, but is able to be all powerful and all-knowing

B. Loves us, knows what will happen, but is powerless to stop it

C. Loves us, is powerful enough to stop things, but is unaware of what will happen.

or

D. A Loving, Powerful, Knowing God. (Notice the lack of All before all of those words)

You know how selfish you make humanity sound? Grow up man! I am laying out a model that makes perfect sense and I know alot of people that agree with it. YOU have to realize that there are certain restrictions or limitations that come with freedom that clearly god is not going to break. This is the model I am laying out. This is the model that is in the bible as well, as far as I can tell. I am ok with this model. Do also keep in mind that it would be POINTLESS to grant free agency and then take it away. ALSO keep in mind that not giving something the chance to do right, to prove you wrong even if you thought they would do wrong is wrong. IT is right to give people a chance to do right FIRST before you judge them.

Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:

When you try to combine all three things, All-Loving, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, the logic simply breaks down based solely upon the observations of the world around us. I could at least picture any of the options I gave you, although i would not be convinced of their existence without evidence to support the hypothesis. However, your option is logically inconsistent because it requires God to be indifferent to suffering (allowing a child to be raped, knowing full well it will happen) which removes all-loving, or not able to stop it (By God not being able to be a hypocrite, God is not powerful enough to stop suffering), which removes all-powerful, or has no idea what is going on and so his power and love can't be brought to bear, so not all-knowing. Combining all three of those ideas with observation of the REAL world shows just how illogical your god is.

The problem is you're not accepting the limitations. If you turn on a light in a room the darkness goes away. This is a property of light. IF you give man free agency a property of that free agency is evil. If god sets up a plan and sticks to that plan this is a GOOD thing not a BAD thing, even if it means evil happens. YOU have to realize that it is good because god is going to expose evil (the evil humans from the good humans) and blot it out. God is creating heaven in a sense. Clearly this is the way god is doing it, probably because god would like to have people that freely love over those that are controlled to love. IF god interferes with freedom then he is interfering with people freely loving (hence the interference) and forcing them to be controlled lovers (due to interference). This is wrong.

God showing up and stopping a criminal would show its power and love absolutely but it would also show it to others that would have continued to be evil. This is a collateral effect. It would clearly force them to be lovers of god VS being free lovers of god.

IF you do this you get that, if you do that you get this... Lights on no darkness, lights off you get darkness... No sun no energy, etc.... Limitations of reality... God is aware of them.... I don't know any other way to explain it.. Light switch on, light switch off... Wax on wax off... Lol...

Oh gosh man add it in.. Conclusions are not flawless... Anytime a person says they conclude this you can pretty much assume it is not perfect so in that sense "most of the time" is already in there without it being said.... I was not trying to shovel blame onto secular folk I am shoveling it onto them. People that do not fear god are more likely to be evil than those who fear god. This is logical. THEY HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR MAN! WAKE UP! Don't get me wrong I also admitted that I don't think as a general rule of thumb they are evil but I do think if evil is being done most likely it is by secular folk! As for your stories, you don't know that any of them are actually theists.. Most likely they are using the face of religion claiming to be theist but are not really theist. Post as many stories as you want it does not make a difference. For example; In a story where a catholic priest rapes a child I would conclude he is not actually a faithful person and that he is just working for the money as a catholic priest. IT just is not LOGICAL to think a person who actually FEARS judgement in death to go and do something they know they are going to be punished for doing. This is why I said and feel the way I do, it is not to just through secular folk under the bus it is just THEY HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR... ITS logical.. I hope you get that..

Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:


Do I need to keep going. And remember, these people have free agency to say and believe what they want...They say they are religious, they are definitely not secular. Sorry, but thems the breaks. You do not get to force them to be secular so that your group looks better. That is deception as well, to return to your earlier mention of it.

They have the freedom to be capitalists and to get paid as well which is why they are probably working in those fields, or perhaps to get access to children. Plenty of thoughts we can come up with here... However non of them amount to them not being secular. IT does not make sense for a truly god fearing individual that fears judgement to rape children. IT is more logical for someone that thinks they can do whatever they want in their heart because there is no god that would harm children. This is where I am coming from and it is logical. FYI: The news is paid for and controlled by yours truly = those that you can trust (i'm being cynical if you didn't catch that).

Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:


But, we are not mentally free. There are impositions of morality, even upon a person who is an atheist such as myself. Now, I am not sure if it is your claim, but I have heard, many times, that these morals are an imprint from God in our spirit. If this is your claim (which you will have to clarify), then God has chosen to impede by giving us a moral compass, but not impede to remove the free agency of the rapist in these examples. So, God is choosing to provide limits in one regard (morals imprinted on humanity), but not in another that eventually destroys an innocent child (the rapist).

Again, Alias, I ask, "How on Earth can this be seen as All-Loving"?!?!?!

OH gosh that is hog wash in my mind.... You have morals because of several other reasons. Nothing wrong with atheist folk persay just that I feel that they are the ones who would do wrong over god fearing/god loving people. Please don't confuse religious people with god fearing/god loving people as they are not always the same which is why I categorize them as god fearing/god loving people. Religious people are not always going to church to warship god, I am talking about down right god fearing/god loving people.

Edited by Alias, : edit

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Edited by Alias, : sings: lets see how many edits we can do, lets see how many edits we can do, lets see how many edits we can do!!! :-(


Thanks
Alias :-)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 09-05-2013 3:15 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not yet responded

  
Alias
Member (Idle past 1058 days)
Posts: 95
From: USA
Joined: 06-21-2011


Message 282 of 301 (706070)
09-05-2013 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by Theodoric
09-05-2013 5:05 PM


Re: Free Agency and Time to do what is RIGHT!
Have you ever tried posting more than claims? You seem like an individual that just rapid posts without thinking before he posts.

Thanks
Alias :-)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Theodoric, posted 09-05-2013 5:05 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by Theodoric, posted 09-05-2013 6:27 PM Alias has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5765
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 283 of 301 (706074)
09-05-2013 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by Alias
09-05-2013 5:49 PM


Re: Free Agency and Time to do what is RIGHT!
None of your arguments are showing an omniscient god or even an omnipotent god. Your arguments are jsut reinforcing the view that your god is not what you claim.

Just felt it should be pointed out. You are so driven by faith you cannot see that your arguments are not helping you.

Basically your argument seems to be that once wsomething is created your god is powerless to intervene.

An all knowing god would have known at creation that child rape would happen. An all powerful god would be able to stop child rape from happening. If your god is such then said god would have to be evil in order to let it happen.

Your god is weak and powerless.

Have you ever tried posting more than claims?

I made no claims. I was pointing out that your posts are not supporting your argument.

You seem like an individual that just rapid posts without thinking before he posts.

If you don't like my posts don't respond. If all you have are personal attacks, move along.

You seem like a person that relies a little too much on faith and not on rational thought at all.

ABE
Length of post does not influence quality.

Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.

Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by Alias, posted 09-05-2013 5:49 PM Alias has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by Alias, posted 09-05-2013 8:30 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5765
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 284 of 301 (706075)
09-05-2013 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by Alias
09-05-2013 3:03 PM


Re: Free Agency and Time to do what is RIGHT!
What would be the point of making a broken plane that can't fly if you wanted it to fly? This is reality and in it there are limits. It does not quantify to god not being all knowing. If god wanted the plane to fly he has to make it not broken and able to fly. This is logical.

You are not helping you argument. You acknowledge you god is limited. Limited in what he knows? Power?

So god wanted children to be raped?

That is the logical extension of your argument.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Alias, posted 09-05-2013 3:03 PM Alias has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by Alias, posted 09-05-2013 8:34 PM Theodoric has responded

    
Alias
Member (Idle past 1058 days)
Posts: 95
From: USA
Joined: 06-21-2011


Message 285 of 301 (706077)
09-05-2013 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by Theodoric
09-05-2013 6:27 PM


Re: Free Agency and Time to do what is RIGHT!
Theodoric writes:

None of your arguments are showing an omniscient god or even an omnipotent god. Your arguments are jsut reinforcing the view that your god is not what you claim.

Incorrect. If you're referring to limitations such as not interfering with humanities affairs or creating something that has the capacity to do evil none of that suggests god is not a all powerful all knowing all loving creator god. It suggests that god is creating something specific and has a plan laid out to be loving and to blot out evil while doing it.

Theodoric writes:

I made no claims. I was pointing out that your posts are not supporting your argument.

Yes you have made a claim. You claim I am not supporting my argument. I disagree. Are you just going to sit there and make a claim?

I have not made any personal attacks. How about you explain why your thought is more rational instead of making false claims.

Edited by Alias, : edit

Edited by Alias, : edit


Thanks
Alias :-)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by Theodoric, posted 09-05-2013 6:27 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
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