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Author Topic:   Age of mankind, dating, and the flood
Coyote
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Posts: 5868
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 181 of 224 (738088)
10-04-2014 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by djufo
10-04-2014 4:35 PM


Have you excavated and tested the area of mesopotamia which is the area where the most common historical data of an ancient flood comes from?

A global flood as described in the bible covered the entire world. Evidence should be found worldwide. It is not.

Historical data is all well and good, but the absolute lack of physical evidence in archaeological sites kills off the flood myth completely.

P.S. Define "myth"

Most everything you have posted here.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by djufo, posted 10-04-2014 4:35 PM djufo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by djufo, posted 10-04-2014 10:25 PM Coyote has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18669
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 182 of 224 (738094)
10-04-2014 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by djufo
10-04-2014 5:29 PM


Re: Curiously 8,000 years is less than 10,000 years
What makes you think that I am the one "discovering" these things? I did not write any of the information about our creation. I am repeating what was written thousands of years ago. ...

Curiously, what I said was that you had contradicted yourself and asked if you could admit to being wrong -- the basic requirement of honest debate. Apparently you can't.

... Who are you to disprove what our ancestors knew about our origins? ...

What I have posted is based on objective empirical evidence that has been tested and validated.

... all of a sudden we have a bunch of modern nerds coming up with science fiction movies of monkeys learning to write and speak. ...

It appears that what you think is evolution was learned from the Planet of the Apes movies ...

... How do you prove that an "agricultural revolution" started in the hills? ...

By looking at the objective empirical evidence. For example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jarmo

quote:
Jarmo (Qal'at Jarmo) is an archeological site located in northern Iraq on the foothills of Zagros Mountains east of Kirkuk city. It was one of the oldest agricultural communities in the world, dating back to 7090 BCE. ...

There is more. Jarmo predates the larger cities of Ur and Urek that grew on the fertile plains of the Euphrates River. It shows the transition from hunter-gatherer to farmer as they discover how to cultivate various plants that regrew at the locations they frequented, and which allowed them to settle down in one place. This technology was then used in the more fertile land of the river flood plains, allowing larger cities to be built as more people could be fed.

... LMAO what do you guys smoke to come up with such ridiculous ideas! There was never anything like an "agricultural revolution" lol revolution my **s!

This is a graph that I drew for my Master's Thesis in 1972 (before home computers were readily available).

You can clearly see the population explosions and then capping as population saturated the available ecology, first for hunting, then for agricultural, followed by the industrial revolution and the (current) global revolution. Population grows to fill the ecological niche, and then the next innovation occurs that allows more population.

If you would like to educate yourself about history, research and read about the information provided by ancient civilizations. All the answers are there, not in the fictional books dictated and forced by a federal agency (doe)

Curiously I have read and researched the history, not from sources dictated by your paranoid fictional conspiracy or any other purported "authority" ... except for the authority of what was available at the time.

You have failed to prove a single thing you said. ...

Actually that shoe fits you. Tightly. All you have provided are whisps of information shrouded in belief and opinion and devoid of actual objective empirical evidence. You keep saying you have information, but you don't provide it.

... So because I cannot find any remains of your great great great grandfather I should assume by your brilliant logical process that he never existed correct? Any mention of his, is pure myth

Try again. You might try forming a coherent sentence with some actual meaning based on the actual argument against you.

Enjoy


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by djufo, posted 10-04-2014 5:29 PM djufo has responded

Replies to this message:
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djufo
Member (Idle past 899 days)
Posts: 55
From: FL
Joined: 10-02-2014


Message 183 of 224 (738100)
10-04-2014 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Coyote
10-04-2014 6:01 PM


Coyote: Have you excavated and tested the area of mesopotamia which is the area where the most common historical data of an ancient flood comes from?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Coyote, posted 10-04-2014 6:01 PM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Coyote, posted 10-04-2014 11:21 PM djufo has not yet responded
 Message 190 by Pressie, posted 10-05-2014 10:08 AM djufo has not yet responded

    
djufo
Member (Idle past 899 days)
Posts: 55
From: FL
Joined: 10-02-2014


Message 184 of 224 (738101)
10-04-2014 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by RAZD
10-04-2014 7:45 PM


Re: Curiously 8,000 years is less than 10,000 years
I am sorry to tell you that the collection of your empirical data is full of flaws. Therefore your research is completely invalid. How can you prove that your fantastic story of hill farmers were the transition to the later cities of Ur and Uruk?

Or even better, what can you tell about the Sumerian knowledge of 9 celestial bodies plus the Sun in the center? was it "myth" too? oh no is not myth because we can actually see today 9 celestial bodies with the Sun in the center. Nobody cares about what the "experts" say today. The history is already written.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by RAZD, posted 10-04-2014 7:45 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member
Posts: 5868
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 185 of 224 (738108)
10-04-2014 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by djufo
10-04-2014 10:25 PM


Coyote: Have you excavated and tested the area of mesopotamia which is the area where the most common historical data of an ancient flood comes from?

I have not but my colleagues have.

But it doesn't matter. If there is a claim for a global flood, as there is in the bible, then anywhere that claim is found to be incorrect is sufficient to disprove the claim!

You seem to want to accept old tribal myths instead of real world evidence. That's not a very good bet.

And again, you have failed to present any evidence for your position.

But I can present evidence for mine: mtDNA evidence from On Your Knees Cave in southern Alaska (10,300 years ago) and Anzick in western Montana (12,600 years ago) produced a rare haplotype, D4h3. That haplotype is found among living individuals all along the west coasts of North and South America.

If there was a global flood which wiped out everyone but Noah and his kin some 4,350 years ago you could not have the continuity of mtDNA that is shown in the above examples.

In other words, no global flood. Get used to it--the global flood is a myth that is contradicted by real world evidence.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by djufo, posted 10-04-2014 10:25 PM djufo has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 15645
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 186 of 224 (738138)
10-05-2014 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by djufo
10-04-2014 12:23 PM


djufo writes:

I have answers for everything.

You have words you said in reply, but no answers.

The key mistake ALL of you do over and over again, is the use of words such as "believe" and "myth" keep in mind, you grew up brainwashed with those words.

Having never met us nor studied our backgrounds in detail, you know this how? Or is it perhaps just one of the myths you believe?

You grew up brainwashed with an image that we are monkeys, we evolved from monkeys, you are nothing more than a monkey, and anything exceptional you are able to do is just random occurrence of nature.

Homo Sapiens are apes, not monkeys. We're more distantly related to monkeys, but we're not monkeys.

Come out of the box. You don't "believe". You either know or do not know.

There's no box. This is science, which studies everything in the universe. Science doesn't "know" anything, if you mean that word in any absolute sense. Science is tentative, always ready to change its views in light of new evidence or improved insight.

"Myth" has never been related to something false, fake, non existent.

Sure it has. Here's the definitions from Dictionary.com:

  1. a traditional or legendary story, usually concerning some being or hero or event, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation, especially one that is concerned with deities or demigods and explains some practice, rite, or phenomenon of nature.

  2. stories or matter of this kind:
    realm of myth.

  3. any invented story, idea, or concept:
    His account of the event is pure myth.

  4. an imaginary or fictitious thing or person.

  5. an unproved or false collective belief that is used to justify a social institution.

The most substantial difference between myth and science is one lacks evidence and the other doesn't. Once a myth has evidence it's true it isn't a myth anymore.

The misconception of the significance of the word "myth" has been perverted by a bunch of clowns AKA "scientists" who just like a well structured religion, are followers of a sect which at the top has a specific agenda.

The worst thing you can think of to say about scientists is that they're imitating religion? Interesting.

Science studies the natural world, not myths. In all the science books and articles I've read, I've rarely come across the word "myth" unless myths were the object of study.

The meaning of "myth" is "an attempt to interpret the divine" That is all. No more, no less. So any time you see something cataloged as "myth" by the "experts", your brain automatically relates that to "bullshit", "non-important", "joke" Remove that view.

There you are making unsupported assumptions about us again. I suspect most of us here pretty much use the definition of myth I provided above. For example, I think most of us here regard the Jesus myth as unsupported accounts that serve as the foundation for one of the most important religions in world history, not "bullshit", "non-important" or a "joke".

As far as the flood, it is too large to post here every single archaeological research and study, but to provide some information, in the early 20th century the ancient cities of Ur, Kish, Shuruppak, were discovered. And this is just to name a few. Now keep in mind, these cities were ONLY and EXCLUSIVELY know before through passages of the bible (Mythology?) the discovery of them definitely closed the mouth of many at that time when they realized it was exactly the same cities mentioned in the bible.

You're attempting to argue that Biblical myths must be accepted as true because they mention cities that actually exist, but many myths mention places that actually exist. The Robin Hood myth also mentions cities that actually exist, but in the absence of evidence we're under no obligation to believe Robin Hood existed and his exploits real.

All these cities, share one common characteristic. Upon excavation, you find remains of settlements, then you have a layer of ancient mud or thin soil, then 8-13 feet below, you have new remains of civilization. Different carbon dating, although not completely accurate due to the exposure of high radiation levels in the area at that time, suggest evidence of a general flood at multiple different times. Some studies suggest 2,000-3,000 BCE, others suggest 5,000 BCE.

The Tigris/Euphrates flood plain experienced regular spring flooding, like the Nile.

So how we support evidence. Well, all ancient civilizations in the middle east wrote about a great flood in their recent past. More in detail, they specifically explained how and why it happened.

What? The Epic of Gilgamesh and Genesis provide evidenced-based explanations for how and why the great flood happened? Tell us more, please.

Around 10,000-13,000 the planet was still coming out of the last age. The best habitable zone in the planet was of course close to the Equator. This put us EXACTLY where the first human civilizations were created and were the creation took place, mesopotamia. Today southern Iraq. According to ancient data, in those days, a large portion of ice separated from a cap traveling close to the equator, melting, and causing the sea level to raise.

I don't think you really mean to claim that the Epic of Gilgamesh or Genesis say anything about an ice age, and especially not about a "portion of ice separated from a cap traveling close to the equator, melting, and causing the sea level to raise."

Sumerians showed up in the picture with advanced farming techniques, writing, the wheel, mathematics and geometry, astronomy, astrology and many other advanced knowledge. They wrote over and over again, they never invented or figured out anything. They receive the knowledge and training from "the heavens" Beings coming down from the heavens (sky, space, remember mythology: and ATTEMPT to interpret the divine, unknowkn) with wings (Again mythology: the only thing that can come down from above in those days is a bird. If a human being comes down from above, therefore HAS to have wings. Again, mythology: attempting to interpret the divine through a process of logic)

And the evidence for this?

Anyways, going back to the flood, your modern common sense tells you "oh, to have a sudden rise of sea levels big enough to cause a flood. the global temperature has to have risen significantly" not necessarily, since we have the alleged big mass of ice coming up to the equator and melting at a fast pace.

Since there's no evidence for a global flood covering even the mountain tops, and since there's not enough water in the world to flood to such a depth, there's no need for explanations of how it could have happened. That exercise is left for those who believe, in the absence of all evidence, that a global flood happened sometime in the last 10,000 years or so. Which is exactly what you're trying to do with your, "alleged big mass of ice coming up to the equator and melting at a fast pace."

So since not all humans died with the flood, then what was the point of it? there is vast information about, it but it will be for a different post, on a different day.

Will there be evidence along with this "information"?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by djufo, posted 10-04-2014 12:23 PM djufo has not yet responded

    
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1635
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 187 of 224 (738139)
10-05-2014 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by djufo
10-04-2014 10:35 PM


Re: Curiously 8,000 years is less than 10,000 years
Djufo writes:

I am sorry to tell you that the collection of your empirical data is full of flaws.

Troll.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by djufo, posted 10-04-2014 10:35 PM djufo has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 15645
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 188 of 224 (738141)
10-05-2014 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by djufo
10-04-2014 5:29 PM


Re: Curiously 8,000 years is less than 10,000 years
djufo writes:

Who are you to disprove what our ancestors knew about our origins?

We're still waiting for you to "prove" what our ancestors knew about our origins. So far all you have is unsupported claims that what they wrote was fact and not myth.

All of a sudden we have a bunch of modern nerds coming up with science fiction movies of monkeys learning to write and speak.

I think you're confusing science and Hollywood.

How do you prove that an "agricultural revolution" started in the hills? LMAO what do you guys smoke to come up with such ridiculous ideas! There was never anything like an "agricultural revolution" lol revolution my **s!

If you would like to educate yourself about history, research and read about the information provided by ancient civilizations. All the answers are there, not in the fictional books dictated and forced by a federal agency (doe)

You have failed to prove a single thing you said. So because I cannot find any remains of your great great great grandfather I should assume by your brilliant logical process that he never existed correct? Any mention of his, is pure myth.

You're saying some pretty weird things. Our understanding of the origins of agriculture comes from archeological studies. It's no problem if you would prefer to avoid the term argicultural revolution for something that took millennia, but the shift in the archeological record from hunter/gatherer to agrarian economies is dramatic.

And biology requires that everyone had 16 great great great grandfathers (not necessarily all different people), but only with evidence can we say anything more about them.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by djufo, posted 10-04-2014 5:29 PM djufo has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 15645
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 189 of 224 (738142)
10-05-2014 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by djufo
10-04-2014 10:35 PM


Re: Curiously 8,000 years is less than 10,000 years
djufo writes:

I am sorry to tell you that the collection of your empirical data is full of flaws. Therefore your research is completely invalid.

I think one actually has to identify the flaws instead of just claiming there are flaws. Wouldn't it be wonderful if winning a debate were as easy as saying, "Your data is flawed." Alas.

Or even better, what can you tell about the Sumerian knowledge of 9 celestial bodies plus the Sun in the center? was it "myth" too? oh no is not myth because we can actually see today 9 celestial bodies with the Sun in the center. Nobody cares about what the "experts" say today. The history is already written.

This is the first I've heard this claim, so Googling it I could only find references to the Sumerians believing there were 11 planets, not 9. It seems to be based upon this image (click to enlarge):

If you count the bodies around the sun, there are 11. Some argue that one of those bodies is the moon, so that leaves 10 celestial bodies, except there's an extra celetial body alone by itself to the right, making 11 again. Some argue that this represents a former planet that is now the asteroid belt, but recent research indicates there isn't enough mass in the asteroid belt to have ever comprised a planet.

But whether the Sumerians thought there were 9, 10, 11 or 12 planets, what's important is the data that drove their thinking. What do we know about that data?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by djufo, posted 10-04-2014 10:35 PM djufo has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Pressie
Member
Posts: 1635
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 190 of 224 (738143)
10-05-2014 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by djufo
10-04-2014 10:25 PM


Talking nonsense
Nope.

Some of my forebearers were what you would call Bushmen. Those relatively small guys were digging for roots in the Kalahari. Getting sea food on beaches. And specialists in hunting antelopes. No flood legends involved. They have been here for at least 40 000 years.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by djufo, posted 10-04-2014 10:25 PM djufo has not yet responded

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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5765
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 191 of 224 (738158)
10-05-2014 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by djufo
10-04-2014 12:23 PM


In a language called Sumerian cuneiform

No.
Their language was Sumerian. The writing system is cuneiform. Using your logic English and Portuguese are the same language.

The rest is just pseudo intellectual crap. What you write just exposes your complete ignorance of the reality.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by djufo, posted 10-04-2014 12:23 PM djufo has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13213
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 192 of 224 (738164)
10-05-2014 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by djufo
10-04-2014 12:23 PM


djufo writes:

Come out of the box. You don't "believe". You either know or do not know.


You believe you know. The more evidence you have, the more confidence you have that what you "know" matches reality. The less evidence you have, the more you have to rely on belief and the less (real) confidence you have in what you "know".

You pretend to be confident that you "know" but you don't present any evidence. Your belief is empty.


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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 18669
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 193 of 224 (738172)
10-05-2014 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by djufo
10-04-2014 10:35 PM


Curiously 8,000 years is still less than 10,000 years
I am sorry to tell you that the collection of your empirical data is full of flaws. ...

Give me one and back it up with reference material so I can check it and make sure you are not just posting ant frass.

... Therefore your research is completely invalid. ...

My data is from multiple sources and you need to actually falsify each set of data to show that my research was invalid.

The fact that they are consilient with each other means that my results are more likely correct than incorrect.

Now I agree that some of it is dated -- seeing as it was done in 1972 (before you were born perhaps?) -- but what I have seen since that time has only reinforced my results, not challenged it.

If my data were full of flaws however, there would be no reason for the consilience of the data.

Thus I can freely consider your completely unsupported claim is nothing more than hogwash ... unless you can demonstrate the errors in each set of data.

And so far your record of providing data is 0 - zilch - nada - rien ... all you have is opinion and arrogance. I'm not holding my breath.

How can you prove that your fantastic story of hill farmers were the transition to the later cities of Ur and Uruk?

It is a simple matter of timing and the development of artifacts found at the sites, artifacts that become more refined in the cities.

It is also a pattern that is seen elsewhere in the world as agriculture is introduced or discovered in the different regions.

Or even better, what can you tell about the Sumerian knowledge of 9 celestial bodies plus the Sun in the center? was it "myth" too? oh no is not myth because we can actually see today 9 celestial bodies with the Sun in the center. Nobody cares about what the "experts" say today. The history is already written.

This is known as the "red herring" logical fallacy, throwing in a non-sequitur into an argument to divert attention from the fact that you are not answering the questions.

You keep saying that the "history is already written" and yet you haven't provided any reference to that actual history. You've been caught out already on claiming the flood was documented in history before there was written history.

So I ask again -- can you admit that you are wrong when you are wrong or are you delusional3?

de•lu•sion -noun (American Heritage Dictionary 2009)

  1. a. The act or process of deluding.
    b. The state of being deluded.
  2. A false belief or opinion: labored under the delusion that success was at hand.
  3. Psychiatry A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness: delusions of persecution.

The delusions of persecution does seem to fit with your ranting about everybody but you being brainwashed and muppets for some vast conspiracy.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by djufo, posted 10-04-2014 10:35 PM djufo has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18669
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 194 of 224 (738229)
10-06-2014 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by djufo
10-04-2014 12:23 PM


another error in your thinking, btw
... According to ancient data, in those days, a large portion of ice separated from a cap traveling close to the equator, melting, and causing the sea level to raise.

... the global temperature has to have risen significantly" not necessarily, since we have the alleged big mass of ice coming up to the equator and melting at a fast pace.

Do you know that melting ice-bergs (floating chunks of ice) do not raise the level of the sea?

Melting ice that is on land causes sea levels to rise.

... and melting at a fast pace.

So the last ice age ended in 40 days?

Enjoy.

Edited by RAZD, : ...


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by djufo, posted 10-04-2014 12:23 PM djufo has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5868
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 195 of 224 (738233)
10-06-2014 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Pressie
10-05-2014 10:08 AM


Re: Talking nonsense
Some of my forebearers were what you would call Bushmen. Those relatively small guys were digging for roots in the Kalahari. Getting sea food on beaches. And specialists in hunting antelopes. No flood legends involved. They have been here for at least 40 000 years.

That's another example of the continuity of mtDNA that disproves the idea of a global flood during the past 40,000 years.

Such a flood would have to produce a discontinuity of mtDNA, among other discontinuities.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Pressie, posted 10-05-2014 10:08 AM Pressie has not yet responded

  
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