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Author | Topic: Is Dispensationalism a cult? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
In one of my threads, I brought up a good book by a dispensationalist, CR.Stam and was promptly called out by our works required-charged to do your best protestant, jar.
jar,to Phat writes: . jar has always had a trademark scripture that summarizes his beliefs, taught to him ages ago by his family. Have you joined yet another of the dispensationalist cults?jar,somewhere on EvC writes: Of course we know that the Bible says whatever it is we quote-mine it to say, so there will always be discussion. In this topic, I want to discuss whether or not there is any merit to the teachings of CR Stam and other dispensationalists.
But of course, the Bible says that Jesus said salvation is based on your behavior, your works.As a Protestant and having been raised as a Protestant and educated in a Protestant school I can say that we were taught that works were essential. As my old mom used to say, "It ain't what you profess to believe, it's what you do that shows what you REALLY believe." There are some chapters of Club Christian that hold and market the old "Jesus paid for all my sins" theology. I have to admit that is an attractive product, easy to to sell, epitomized by the oft seen bumper sticker "Not perfect, just saved." It is a great con job, totally legal and with absolutely no product liability. jar writes: The question is whether there is a new requirement for believers(or anybody, really) that is not emphasized by Jesus and/or is a human invention rather than a Biblical Principal.
We can say for sure that Paul had no problem playing fast and loose with the truth if it helped him as a marketeer of his new creation, Christianity. There is no evidence that Paul was chosen to the "Apostle to the Gentiles" or that he was in fact "Apostle to the Gentiles" And yes, what Paul said is totally different than what is marketed today. In this topic, I want to discuss some of the arguments used by dispensationalists and will also bring up what the critics say. Faith & Belief might be best. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes:
Why must everything be "marketing" with you? Are you suggesting that the common understanding for the first 1400-1500 years is the true way of interpreting scripture? Keep in mind that the printing of books had barely begun and that 90% of people were illiterate anyway. Dispensationalism is a fairly new phenomenon and totally changed the thrust and reading of the Bible from what had been the common understanding for the first 1400 or 1500 years but it was eminently marketable and a great way to control the masses. Up until the advent of the Dispensation marketing ploy the prophesies found in the Bible were understood to refer to the contemporary period when written and for the contemporary audience. Revelation for example was understood to refer to the period shortly after the destruction of Jerusalem. I am more interested in examining this so-called marketing ploy....are you suggesting that dispensationalists don't read the Bible?
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
nwr writes: Is this a thread about dispensationalism? Or is this a polemic attacking jar? Is dispensationalism a cult? I'm inclined to agree with jar on that. However, we do not have a clear crisp definition of "cult". The boundary between cult and non-cult is very fuzzy. I am never vindictive with jar...but he does force me to examine my beliefs so i often call him out on certain things....what started my topic was his insinuation that i had joined a cult. The purpose of this topic is to hopefully try and show why its not a cult. My church has a very gifted Pastor who is one of the better preachers out there...he is a literalist to a large degree but at this time i see no problem with literal interpretations of scripture...after all, most christian pastors in the US simply make stuff up....just listen to TBN! As far as my beliefs go, I am more inclined to believe based on biblical scripture rather than simply adopting secular wisdom. I dont really respect most secular wisdom...it has not helped our society. Noted Addictions expert, Patrick Carnes, says that our society is becoming massively addicted and that the next wave of addictions will be a veritable tsunami...fueled in large part by social media and electronic obsession...it all is connected...health care costs, the attitudes of society...so, nwr, I am very much in respect of jar when he challenges my beliefs...and am not attacking him so much as prodding him to challenge me. Lets examine some Bible verses that are used by dispensationalists to show some of their theology......
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0
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no nukes writes: Yes, lets examine the term....what makes RC the "father church" and Protestants a "cult" for example? surely its not simply the newest step child that gets labled as such....hmmm..lets ask Mr.Dictionary...
I would suggest demonstrating that dispensationalism is worthy of carrying the pejoratives associated with the word cult. Cult--
1. a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader. b. The followers of such a religion or sect. 2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual. 3. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual. 4. A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease. 5. a. Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing. b. The object of such devotion. 6. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Is that more nonsense that the dispensationalists sold you? You seem to believe that I never think for myself. The church that I belong to now is very community oriented and is not wealthy at all. We are in the heart of the inner city.
jar writes: Good points, both. You are challenging me to think...this is one thing I always liked about you...
If everyone was illiterate then who bought the books? Why did the printing press succeed? And are you claiming that no books existed before the printing press and moveable type were invented? I am asking what it was that people believed back then that was in any way better or more logical than what is being taught now.
jar writes: Believe it or not, I question many things, but am not so doubtful as others might be. When you ask me if I have ever read the Bible, for example, I can say that I read it regularly now...and much of what it says makes sense to me...
Stop believing what you are told, particularly if it comes from a Priest or Pastor or Brother or Bishop. Challenge all of it. Doubt all of it. I am saying that today a great way to get rich is to be a preacher in the fundamentalist/evangelical/dispensationalist Chapters of Club christian. Tell folk they are saved, born again. Personally, I make no distinction between saved and lost, or unenlightened people. I do believe that Paul was inspired and not simply a Jew in search of building a franchise. The fact that his ideas differ from Jewish ideas only shows me that dispensationalists may be on to something when they talk of the difference between the Kingdom of Israel and the Mystery for the Gentiles. Can we discuss some of the scriptures and question what it is that is taught by these new kids on the block?
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0
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jar writes: Because the bible is explained in a way that makes more sense. Why do you always seem to drift towards dispensationalism? What is it in the product that you like? Why do you buy the product? I don't like the idea that Jesus was never born of a virgin and is likely not alive. I simply don't accept that. While I may allow that God expects us to question things and think for ourselves, I believe that many people deny the need for Christ or the power. This world will never solve its problems through logic, reason, and reality alone. Thats for starters.
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0
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jar writes: So dispensationalism has nothing to do with reality or what the Bible actually says... Please show me where the Bible contradicts anything that I believe..there is ample suggestion that Jesus is alive.
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0
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PaulK writes: So let's stick to "making sense of the Bible" because that's the only thing you attribute to Dispensationalism specifically. To start with, (and it is here that I want participants in this thread to know that I believe the words,phrases,and books that make up the Bibles that I use(KJV,NKJV,NIV,STRONGS CONCORDANCE,ESV,The Message) are not simply ideas that originated in the minds of men.)I am believing that the Bible is inspired teaching. GDR brings up the point that for him, Jesus is the living word and that He defines the book, rather than the book defining Him. I believe that Jesus is alive and that the Word is living and active. Given that, I agree with what is taught--although I DO question it, or I would never start a topic like this.
ringo writes: As far as thinking for myself...yes, I DO think for myself within the context of my belief. One of my favorite scriptures is this one:
The point is: are you encouraged to think for yourself? If dispensationalism as a whole or your congregation in particular is discouraging you from questioning them, telling you to "just have faith", then that might be a symptom of a cult. Proverbs 3:5-6~Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight. jar writes: I don't want to avoid responsibility at all--I simply believe that Gods wisdom is greater than my own wisdom.
There is absolutely nothing in your reasons related to dispensationalism and everything to do with Phat not wanting to take responsibility for what happens and Phat wanting someone else to step in and fix things. GDR writes: For the purposes of our discussion, I am willing to ask questions--but keep in mind that I do believe that my beliefs are an answer...otherwise I would be an atheist.
I think that the biggest reason that Christians want to understand the Bible as being the Word of God as opposed to the word of God, (IMHO Jesus is the Word of God), is that we want definite answers and understanding.
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0
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quote:Only if your belief lies in yourself as the source of wisdom and only if God was not real.
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
When we look at a passage, we ask ourselves the following questions:
1) Who said it? 2) To whom was it being said? 3) Which time period was it in?(for example...before or after the resurrection...) 4) Circumstances and context.
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Jon writes: Keep in mind that we people here at EvC don't really know each other. All the evidence that we have about one another stems from the statements and posts that we make. I have changed over the years, but you are right that in some ways--ways that you can see--I have not changed. I still believe in God...perhaps now more than ever. Thus, you could rightly assert that my self proclaimed attempts at questioning are a sort of confirmation bias for me. This is , I think, a trait of humanity. Rarely do people dramatically change their opinions or beliefs. Do you have any anecdotal observations to disprove my observation? I mean...come on...we both know jar, for example. Has he changed much in the past ten years? Has Tangle? Ringo? Faith? And again...all that we have is anecdotal evidence...just look at anyones old posts...in fact, Jon...the one whom I have seen change here at EvC is you. You have made more intelligent posts than you used to make. You are still a thorn at times, though you do so with perhaps more noble motives...though I'll let the audience decide. Why are you supposedly always so busy questioning, even when it produces no difference in you or your opinion? Getting back on topic--as far as my faith and belief go, I am still a Christian and likely won't change. Intellectually, the arguments against my beliefs are somewhat sound. Heartwise and heartfelt, I am unconvinced. And thats the bottom line,really. For me at least. I judge men more based on their heart and soul than I do based on their intelligence. And these feelings come out of longtime posters...you can sense it through the words that they write. At least I do.
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
how does favoring a scripture confirm lack of thought?
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
nwr writes: Yes. Is this a thread about dispensationalism? Here is a better summation of what Mid Acts dispensationalists believe:
quote:I was spurred back into this discussion after reading comments about Calvinism in another thread. Upon re-reading the Five Points Of Calvinism I was convinced that I too disagreed with much of Calvinist ideology and yet I was moved to go back to the roots of what I have been taught to see if it made more logical sense. So far it does. nwr writes: Not only is it an issue whether or not people get their ideas from the Bible rather than other like minded believers, it is a definite issue as to how reliable the Bible is as a source versus human wisdom, logic, reason, and reality. I differ from many of my fellow believers in that I am unafraid to use logic, reason, and reality to a point. I do believe, however, that God exists, that He desires to interact with humanity (through Jesus Christ and the words of the Bible) and that He also is rational, logical, and hopefully reasonable. I do consider YEC creationism a cult. But one could be a YEC without being part of that cult. What marks YEC as a cult, is that the adherents of that view are citing biblical evidence that cannot actually be found in the Bible. That is, they are taking marching orders from the controllers of the cult (such as Ken Ham). For dispensationalism, I'd raise the same issue. Are they getting their ideas from the Bible, or are they getting them from other dispensationalists. If the latter, then that is cult-like behavior.nwr writes: I agree. In terms of reading theology, you should use the theology to see a range of opinions of others. But you still have to read the biblical text for yourself and make your own judgments.
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
zombie writes: And this gets back to the issue of critical thinking versus belief. I have raised the question as to whether a critical thinker could also be a believer. As far as "Father Knows Best", one would think that belief in God presupposes that God knows more than we do, no? Unless of course one studies gods and theology from the bias that humans created all of these entities through literature. I personally do not believe that. The "context of your belief" seems to be that Father Knows Best. You seem to be looking for a cult, whether you've found one or not.
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0
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jar writes: Actually, I recently heard a great sermon on your scriptural quote.
As I have said, dispensationalism is a great product to market and a far easier sell than "Take up YOUR cross and follow me." The Cross And Our Self-Will - Zac Poonen Zac says that that scripture--your favorite about Lacrosse--is found in all four Gospels. He maintains that while many Christians profess to give their minds and emotions to God...far fewer aspire to give God their will on any consistent basis. A daily decision to follow Christ and deny oneself is not accomplished through impartation nor magic. It is (as you have mentioned) based on what we do. And I readily admit that much of my prayer life focuses on Phat more than others---this is a problem for me and one that I am aware of.
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