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Author | Topic: The Search for Moderate Islam | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Jon writes:
Well, it wouldn't be, would it? Explosions are typically louder than non-explosions.
The peaceful voice of Islam is not made heard. Jon writes:
So Gandhi should have yelled louder? If peaceful Muslims want their religion to stand for peace, then their voices should be loud enough to be heard over the voices of the evil Muslims. You Americans with your "fighting for peace" mindset don't seem to be able to comprehend the concept of being peaceful for peace. What you do - or don't do - often "speaks" louder than loud speech.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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I think I get where Jon is coming from. That is, its not hard to find a proponent of a religion doing or saying pretty much anything. But what about the religion, itself?
Like, I've seen Christian-based groups that go on and on about how great homeopathy is, but I wouldn't say that homeopathy is a tenant of Christianity, or even a part of it. I would argue that homeopathy is not a part of Christianity. I would also argue that moderation is not a part of Islam. Are there any parts of Islam that do teach moderation? Anyways, you've got CAIR, and from their website we get:
quote: Now, are these tenants of Islam? Does Islam teach freedom of religion? Does Islam teach to protect the civil rights of all Americans? Does Islam support domestic policies that promote civil rights, diversity and freedom of religion? Does Islam support equal and complementary rights and responsibilities for men and women? Now, I'm sure you can find a muslim person supporting all those things, but does that stuff stem from the religion? You also quote the Islamic Monthly, but:
quote: So they're not even Islamic...
A moderate Muslim, like moderate Christians do not believe faith should be forced upon others and we should learn to live with people of different religions rather than fighting or coercing them. So, where does Islam teach that?
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Cat's Eye writes:
Christianity doesn't support any of those things.
Does Islam teach freedom of religion? Does Islam teach to protect the civil rights of all Americans? Does Islam support domestic policies that promote civil rights, diversity and freedom of religion? Does Islam support equal and complementary rights and responsibilities for men and women?
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Christianity doesn't support any of those things. Irrelevant and off topic.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Cat's Eye writes:
I don't think so. You seem to be setting up equality, etc. as if it is some kind of standard to which Islam "should" adhere if it is to be thought of as "moderate". I'm just saying that if nobody else upholds that standard it isn't reasonable to ask it of Islam.
ringo writes:
Irrelevant and off topic. Christianity doesn't support any of those things.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
You seem to be setting up equality, etc. as if it is some kind of standard to which Islam "should" adhere if it is to be thought of as "moderate". No, they were claims made by proponents of Islam. I was asking if those claims were made by the religion, itself. A Christian could say that we should explore Mars, but that isn't anything that is inherent to Christianity. A Muslim could say that we should treat women equally, but that isn't anything that is inherent to Islam.
I'm just saying that if nobody else upholds that standard it isn't reasonable to ask it of Islam. That sounds like: "Yes, there is no moderate Islam. But its okay because nobody else is moderate either." If you agree that there is no moderate Islam, then I guess that's all there is to say about that.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
FYI, this is a statement from the Muslim Council of Britain
Not in our Name: British Muslims Condemn the Barbarity of ISIS 20 August 2014 The Muslim Council of Britain once again condemned the actions of the so called Islamic State in Syria and the Levant, ISIS. Today we express once again our rebuke of this reprehensible organisation. We are horrified at the abhorrent murder of James Foley, a reporter who initially went to the region to expose the human rights abuses of the Syrian regime. ISIS has murdered this man for no reason at all. Each day ISIS seeks to carry out an act more barbarous than the day before, craving the oxygen of publicity to give credibility to their heinous acts. We condemn unreservedly their psychopathic violence, whether it is on minorities, on civilians, or on fellow Muslims.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm. |
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Cat's Eye writes:
How is that different from proponents of any other religion making the same claims?
ringo writes:
No, they were claims made by proponents of Islam. I was asking if those claims were made by the religion, itself. You seem to be setting up equality, etc. as if it is some kind of standard to which Islam "should" adhere if it is to be thought of as "moderate". Cat's Eye writes:
Yes it does sound like that - and yes it is "okay" to judge all religions by the same standard. That sounds like: "Yes, there is no moderate Islam. But its okay because nobody else is moderate either." If you want to single out Islam as "not moderate" then you have to play by your own rules.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I would also argue that moderation is not a part of Islam. Are there any parts of Islam that do teach moderation? Are you confident that you know the contents of the Koran well enough to say that? I would appreciate a demonstration. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I searched. Please describe your search. Other people are finding what you did not. Easily.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
I think I get where Jon is coming from. That is, its not hard to find a proponent of a religion doing or saying pretty much anything. But what about the religion, itself? There is no such thing.
I would also argue that moderation is not a part of Islam. Are there any parts of Islam that do teach moderation? You realize they abhor drugs and alcohol right - pretty much moderation right there. Seriously, yes, there are.
Now, are these tenants of Islam? Yes, or derived from it.
Does Islam teach freedom of religion? Yes. The Constitution of Medina.
Does Islam teach to protect the civil rights of all Americans? You know, Islam doesn't exist and can't teach, right? It's just a label for several billion mental conceptions, you realize? So yes, I would say that from what I know of the religion of my Muslim friends, this naturally falls from their religious principles. The same goes for the other stuff.
Now, I'm sure you can find a muslim person supporting all those things, but does that stuff stem from the religion? Have you done any self-analysis as to what you actually mean by this. Are you trying to talk about some ideal Platonic Islam?
You also quote the Islamic Monthly, but: they're not even Islamic... I quoted Arsalan Iftikhar who is a famous Muslim author and lawyer who also happens to have written an article that was published in Islamic Monthly for which he is a senior editor. This reflects very very badly on you and your ability to examine this subject fairly.
So, where does Islam teach that? In many mosques and homes. Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
How is that different from proponents of any other religion making the same claims? Its not. I even compared it to a Christian saying we should explore Mars...
Yes it does sound like that - and yes it is "okay" to judge all religions by the same standard. If you want to single out Islam as "not moderate" then you have to play by your own rules. Sure. But if someone started a thread wanting to talk about how Corvettes are so fast, I don't see any point to you bringing up that Ferraris are also fast.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
There is no such thing. How then, does a person become a Mulsim? Do they just make up whatever they want and are then allowed to apply the Islam label to it? Or, as I suspect, is there a dogma and a group of tenets that make up the religion in which people are born, or convert, into?
You know, Islam doesn't exist and can't teach, right? It's just a label for several billion mental conceptions, you realize? What about the Quran?
Are you trying to talk about some ideal Platonic Islam? I was trying to talk about something that is grounded outside of mental conceptions.
So, where does Islam teach that? In many mosques and homes. Wait... "Islam doesn't exist and can't teach"
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I would also argue that moderation is not a part of Islam. Are there any parts of Islam that do teach moderation?
Are you confident that you know the contents of the Koran well enough to say that? I think so. Where are the parts that teach moderation?
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
How then, does a person become a Mulsim? You say "La ilaha illallah, Muhammadun rasulullah "
Do they just make up whatever they want and are then allowed to apply the Islam label to it? It works the same as with any religion. Or political idea. Or social movement. It's a socially constructed idea, not something that can be pointed to as a real thing. Look - it'll help me understand what you are looking for with Islam if you find another religion and show me the moderate version.
What about the Quran? The Quran is not Islam. It's a book. Can you see the difference?
I was trying to talk about something that is grounded outside of mental conceptions. Islam is a mental conception. If there were no brains, there'd be no Islam.
So, where does Islam teach that? In many mosques and homes. If what happened there confuses you, socio-cultural religious studies is probably not the subject you should be pontificating about. I mentally replaced 'does Islam' with 'do Muslims' to make the question coherent so that I could answer the spirit of the question rather than needlessly repeat a point I made earlier. What are you trying to say? You are not communicating it very well.
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