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Author Topic:   The Marketing Of Christianity
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5046
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 406 of 474 (792925)
10-15-2016 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 404 by Phat
10-15-2016 9:09 AM


Re: Objectivity and Subjectivity
Phat writes:

First, Paul is said to be an uninspired man with an agenda to change the religion.
This is simply untrue. Paul is an inspired man with a calling. (OK we can use the word agenda, but there is no discernible hostile or selfish motive)

Ok, maybe that's a complaint about an individual here - it's certainly not an accusation that can be raised against atheists generally; they could give a toss either way.

Second, too many people believe that the Bible is filled with human invented stories.
I believe that this is a lie. Though I cannot prove it, I will assert that the motive of most Bible Debunkers is not to preach truth, but, rather, to discredit the story of Jesus Christ.

Now this has to be a joke? The bible is stuffed full of myths and porkie pies. Talking snakes, parting waters, flooding the world raising dead - you name it, it's a bunch of children's stories. Objecting to people pointing this out is a bit lame.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 404 by Phat, posted 10-15-2016 9:09 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 408 by Phat, posted 10-18-2016 9:34 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9745
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 407 of 474 (792985)
10-18-2016 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 285 by jar
09-29-2016 11:33 AM


Re: Limited Exposure To Beliefs
Phat writes:

Do you consider the idea that the messenger is the message appropriate?

jar writes:

I consider that a meaningless assertion; just plain silly.

Evidently you believe that it is what we do and not about what He did.

Would I be correct in assuming that you believe that being a "good" or productive Christian does not even require a Living Christ?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by jar, posted 09-29-2016 11:33 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 409 by jar, posted 10-18-2016 9:49 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9745
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 408 of 474 (792986)
10-18-2016 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 406 by Tangle
10-15-2016 11:52 AM


Tales Told Round A Campfire
Tangle writes:

The bible is stuffed full of myths and porkie pies. Talking snakes, parting waters, flooding the world raising dead - you name it, it's a bunch of children's stories.

So am I correct in assuming that if I told you that Jesus Christ was alive today, you would "give a toss either way"?

Or would you demand scientific evidence?

(Keep in mind we are in a Faith & Belief Forum)

I'm still waiting whether jar---a purported Christian--thinks it matters.

There is a difference between telling children to do their best because it is the right thing to do and telling them that God is alive and actually cares about what they do.

Would you tell your children to avoid myths and tales and focus on the dignity and almighty hope that science and critical thinking provide for our lives and our future destiny?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by Tangle, posted 10-15-2016 11:52 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 410 by Tangle, posted 10-18-2016 12:02 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29363
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 409 of 474 (792991)
10-18-2016 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 407 by Phat
10-18-2016 9:28 AM


Re: Limited Exposure To Beliefs
Phat writes:

Phat writes:

Do you consider the idea that the messenger is the message appropriate?

jar writes:

I consider that a meaningless assertion; just plain silly.

Evidently you believe that it is what we do and not about what He did.

I cannot imagine how you could possibly yet again totally misrepresent my position based on what was quoted. How do you do it?

Phat writes:

Would I be correct in assuming that you believe that being a "good" or productive Christian does not even require a Living Christ?

Well first you would have to explain what a Living Christ might even be. That seemed like nothing but more word salad.

But being a "good" or productive Christian first requires being a member of one of the Chapters of Club Christian and then depends on your behavior. I cannot see how any Christ would be a requirement. Perhaps you could explain those issues?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 407 by Phat, posted 10-18-2016 9:28 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 413 by Phat, posted 11-23-2016 11:04 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5046
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 410 of 474 (793006)
10-18-2016 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 408 by Phat
10-18-2016 9:34 AM


Re: Tales Told Round A Campfire
Phat writes:

So am I correct in assuming that if I told you that Jesus Christ was alive today, you would "give a toss either way"?

I'd simply think you're yet another religious crack-pot.

Or would you demand scientific evidence?

You act like this statement has never been said before. If Jesus was alive, I'd know about it wouldn't I?

There is a difference between telling children to do their best because it is the right thing to do and telling them that God is alive and actually cares about what they do.

There sure is, the difference is that the second is at best redundant and at worst a lie used to manipulate others.

Would you tell your children to avoid myths and tales and focus on the dignity and almighty hope that science and critical thinking provide for our lives and our future destiny?

What's science got to do with it? I'd tell - and did tell - my children to respect other people, be nice and help when you can. That's how decent societies get on.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 408 by Phat, posted 10-18-2016 9:34 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 411 by Phat, posted 10-19-2016 11:47 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9745
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 411 of 474 (793050)
10-19-2016 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 410 by Tangle
10-18-2016 12:02 PM


Re: Tales Told Round A Campfire
Tangle writes:

If Jesus was alive, I'd know about it wouldn't I?

Good question.

Would you expect to know about it or would you already have your mind made up about the absurdity of it all?

If you have already concluded that something is impossible, you may never know about it.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by Tangle, posted 10-18-2016 12:02 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 412 by Tangle, posted 10-19-2016 12:03 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5046
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 412 of 474 (793051)
10-19-2016 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 411 by Phat
10-19-2016 11:47 AM


Re: Tales Told Round A Campfire
Phat writes:

Would you expect to know about it or would you already have your mind made up about the absurdity of it all?

You realy struggle with this don't you :-)

I've only made my mind up because I have absolutely no evidence to support the claim that Jesus exists. None. Zip. Alternatively there's stack of evidence that he doesn't. Even your book said he was killed. Even if you believe the daft idea of resurrection, he buggered off into the clouds and was never seen again.

But all that apart, if he showed up and performed a few confirmed miracles I'd be forced to accept that fact.

If you have already concluded that something is impossible, you may never know about it.

That's just silly. If something was demonstrated to be possible, how and why would I reject it??? What sort of strange logic are you applying here? I'm not against the idea of a god, I just think that your's is preposterous, but if he showed up, then fine, I'd be wrong and I'd change my mind. In a flash.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 411 by Phat, posted 10-19-2016 11:47 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 416 by Porosity, posted 06-09-2017 11:10 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9745
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 413 of 474 (794736)
11-23-2016 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 409 by jar
10-18-2016 9:49 AM


Marketing Pressure or Progressive Revelation?
Phat,responding to jar writes:

Do you consider the idea that the messenger is the message appropriate?


jar writes:

I consider that a meaningless assertion; just plain silly.


Lets take this line of thought over to The God That Paul Marketed Over Time.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 409 by jar, posted 10-18-2016 9:49 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9745
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 414 of 474 (811625)
06-09-2017 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by jar
03-29-2016 9:27 AM


Re: God Unplugged
whats wrong with the belief that humans are special to God?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by jar, posted 03-29-2016 9:27 AM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 415 by Porosity, posted 06-09-2017 11:05 PM Phat has responded

  
Porosity
Member
Posts: 155
From: MT, USA
Joined: 06-15-2013
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 415 of 474 (811627)
06-09-2017 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 414 by Phat
06-09-2017 10:39 PM


Re: God Unplugged
whats wrong with the belief that humans are special to God?

Cause hubris, arrogance and insouciance to nature will undo us.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 414 by Phat, posted 06-09-2017 10:39 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 417 by Phat, posted 06-10-2017 12:10 AM Porosity has responded

    
Porosity
Member
Posts: 155
From: MT, USA
Joined: 06-15-2013
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 416 of 474 (811628)
06-09-2017 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 412 by Tangle
10-19-2016 12:03 PM


Re: Tales Told Round A Campfire
but if he showed up, then fine, I'd be wrong and I'd change my mind. In a flash.

Not me.. I would call him out as an evil asshole and tell him to get behind me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 412 by Tangle, posted 10-19-2016 12:03 PM Tangle has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9745
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 417 of 474 (811631)
06-10-2017 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 415 by Porosity
06-09-2017 11:05 PM


Re: God Unplugged
Cause hubris, arrogance, and insouciance to nature will undo us.
I disagree. I maintain that worship (extreme veneration and respect) of nature itself will undo us.

Deut 4:15-20 writes:


You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, 16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, 17 or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, 18 or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below. 19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars--all the heavenly array--do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven.


Worshipping nature includes the deification of human wisdom.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 415 by Porosity, posted 06-09-2017 11:05 PM Porosity has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 418 by Porosity, posted 06-10-2017 12:40 AM Phat has responded
 Message 420 by jar, posted 06-10-2017 7:09 AM Phat has responded
 Message 425 by ringo, posted 06-10-2017 12:03 PM Phat has responded

  
Porosity
Member
Posts: 155
From: MT, USA
Joined: 06-15-2013
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 418 of 474 (811632)
06-10-2017 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 417 by Phat
06-10-2017 12:10 AM


Re: God Unplugged
A deep connection to nature has nothing to do with worship.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 417 by Phat, posted 06-10-2017 12:10 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 419 by Phat, posted 06-10-2017 7:09 AM Porosity has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9745
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 419 of 474 (811644)
06-10-2017 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 418 by Porosity
06-10-2017 12:40 AM


Re: God Unplugged
Nature is very much a part of worship...though the focus is always on the Creator and not on creation itself.

One of the most beautiful worship songs shows this contrast.

https://youtu.be/we-n-Zmglt0


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 418 by Porosity, posted 06-10-2017 12:40 AM Porosity has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29363
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 420 of 474 (811645)
06-10-2017 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 417 by Phat
06-10-2017 12:10 AM


Re: God Unplugged
Phat writes:

Worshipping nature includes the deification of human wisdom.

Phat, that is something that only exists in the minds of the Christian Cult of Ignorance.

There is no evidence of any other form of wisdom than human wisdom (and the wisdom of other living critters). There has never even been an example of any wisdom other than human wisdom offered or presented.

There is no evidence of human wisdom ever being deified. The closest example of that might be Ganesha but even there Ganesha is only the remover of obstacles that can lead to enlightenment. Even there we find balance since Ganesha is also capable of creating obstacles to frustrate all those whose ambition has become so great as to be destructive.

Notice that even what you quoted really says absolutely nothing about human wisdom and is itself an example of human wisdom.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 417 by Phat, posted 06-10-2017 12:10 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 421 by Phat, posted 06-10-2017 7:31 AM jar has responded

  
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