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Author Topic:   The Marketing Of Christianity
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5065
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 436 of 474 (812936)
06-21-2017 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 435 by Phat
06-21-2017 10:25 AM


Re: God Unplugged
Phat writes:


You wont "discover" Him.

He may well find you though.

This is problematic.

If you can't get to heaven unless you're saved and god finds some but not others, that is plainly unjust. Additionally, if god imposes himself on some people in the way that the 'born again' kind say he does, wither free will?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 435 by Phat, posted 06-21-2017 10:25 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 437 by Phat, posted 06-21-2017 12:03 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9762
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 437 of 474 (812942)
06-21-2017 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 436 by Tangle
06-21-2017 10:31 AM


Re: God Unplugged
I could see you saying something like "I don't believe you exist, as you are a figment of religious peoples biased imaginations. IF YOU exist, however, there is not much I can do except meet you initially....so have at it."

Then again, you do have the free will to absolutely refuse to believe or even consider such a fantasy.

jar is correct in that the GOD Who is, IF GOD exists, is far different than any of us could imagine or try to market.

Where I disagree with jar is that he implies that GOD is unconcerned whether we believe or not.

You are likely to agree with him on that one...asking why in effect we need to confuse ourselves with dogma and belief when we could simply go about the business of life doing the best we can for our fellow humans.

Assuming that a GOD exists, however....are you open to knowing Him or not? Simple question

as to HOW you would know, lets leave all of those details up to GOD.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 436 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2017 10:31 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 438 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2017 12:36 PM Phat has responded
 Message 442 by jar, posted 06-21-2017 4:04 PM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5065
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 438 of 474 (812944)
06-21-2017 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 437 by Phat
06-21-2017 12:03 PM


Re: God Unplugged
Phat writes:

I could see you saying something like "I don't believe you exist, as you are a figment of religious peoples biased imaginations. IF YOU exist, however, there is not much I can do except meet you initially....so have at it."

I think you missed my point. Those that say god found them are pretty much consumed by it. I've never heard a single report of someone resisting his obvious approach have you?

Then again, you do have the free will to absolutely refuse to believe or even consider such a fantasy.

But Phat, it wouldn't be that way - when god finds you it's apparently overwhelming.

jar is correct in that the GOD Who is, IF GOD exists, is far different than any of us could imagine or try to market.

We can't know that.

Where I disagree with jar is that he implies that GOD is unconcerned whether we believe or not.

We can't know that.

Assuming that a GOD exists, however....are you open to knowing Him or not? Simple question

That's anything but simple question, but it IS a rediculous question. If god existed why would anyone not be open to knowing him? (Whatever that means).

as to HOW you would know, lets leave all of those details up to GOD.

To get back to my original point, If god doesn't reach out to some but does to others, then he's unjust. If he does reach out to some, he's interfering with their free will. How do you respond?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 437 by Phat, posted 06-21-2017 12:03 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 439 by Phat, posted 06-21-2017 1:27 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9762
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 439 of 474 (812946)
06-21-2017 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 438 by Tangle
06-21-2017 12:36 PM


Re: God Unplugged
tangle writes:

To get back to my original point, If god doesn't reach out to some but does to others, then he's unjust. If he does reach out to some, he's interfering with their free will. How do you respond?

Let me think this through

  • Either He reaches out to all, or jar is right and GOD is unconcerned with our relationship.
    Thus I believe that GOD reaches out to all...but in differing ways. For someone such as myself who seems to need and value the communion, God is there for me.

    jars beliefs have influenced my thoughts on these matters...so I would agree that we are charged to go and do for the least of these. Thus...through agreement with such an unction, someone such as yourself may well be relating to GOD simply by doing for others and not being all sanctimonious and religious about it.

    I can agree that GOD is unconcerned how we relate to Him...yet is concerned with how we relate to others.

    And perhaps GOD reaches out to me by sending me online relationships with people such as yourself. Who knows?


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 438 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2017 12:36 PM Tangle has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 440 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2017 1:45 PM Phat has responded

      
  • Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 5065
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 3.2


    (1)
    Message 440 of 474 (812947)
    06-21-2017 1:45 PM
    Reply to: Message 439 by Phat
    06-21-2017 1:27 PM


    Re: God Unplugged
    Phat writes:

    Either He reaches out to all, or jar is right and GOD is unconcerned with our relationship.

    Or he's arbitrary.

    Thus I believe that GOD reaches out to all...but in differing ways.

    Then he's discriminatory.

    For someone such as myself who seems to need and value the communion, God is there for me.

    He has a weird way of showing it. He gave you all sorts of obsessions and a difficult life but now he's letting you lean on his shoulder and he's patting your head. You've been had Phat.

    Thus...through agreement with such an unction, someone such as yourself may well be relating to GOD simply by doing for others and not being all sanctimonious and religious about it.

    Wow. Atheists are relating to god. Aolologists can say almost anything and make it make sense to themselves.

    I can agree that GOD is unconcerned how we relate to Him...yet is concerned with how we relate to others.

    You can't know that.

    And perhaps GOD reaches out to me by sending me online relationships with people such as yourself. Who knows?

    See above. You can make anything work so long as it's all mysterious.

    But you've still not answered my questions - he reaches out to some but not others - therefore he's unjust; when he reaches out he removes free will by interfering - therefore he's creating worshipful puppets.


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

    "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 439 by Phat, posted 06-21-2017 1:27 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 447 by Phat, posted 06-22-2017 10:12 AM Tangle has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 13641
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.3


    Message 441 of 474 (812953)
    06-21-2017 3:22 PM
    Reply to: Message 435 by Phat
    06-21-2017 10:25 AM


    Re: God Unplugged
    Phat writes:

    Why is He NOT plausible?
    You wont "discover" Him.


    You answered you own question. A real god would have no reason to hide. But the proponents of a fake god have every reason to pretend he's hiding.

    Phat writes:

    What beef would you have with Him?


    I have a beef with anybody who threatens me.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 435 by Phat, posted 06-21-2017 10:25 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 444 by Phat, posted 06-22-2017 3:42 AM ringo has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 29364
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 3.3


    Message 442 of 474 (812956)
    06-21-2017 4:04 PM
    Reply to: Message 437 by Phat
    06-21-2017 12:03 PM


    Re: God Unplugged
    Phat writes:

    jar is correct in that the GOD Who is, IF GOD exists, is far different than any of us could imagine or try to market.

    Where I disagree with jar is that he implies that GOD is unconcerned whether we believe or not.

    Why?

    Do you think the creator of all that is, seen and unseen would really care whether or not anyone believed?

    Pre-teen boys and girls worry about whether someone believes in them or likes them but hopefully they do not remain teens.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 437 by Phat, posted 06-21-2017 12:03 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 443 by Phat, posted 06-22-2017 3:25 AM jar has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9762
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 443 of 474 (812993)
    06-22-2017 3:25 AM
    Reply to: Message 442 by jar
    06-21-2017 4:04 PM


    Re: God Unplugged
    Your reasoning would have merit IF God expected us to do it all ourselves. Personally, I think your beliefs were largely influenced by how you grew up.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 442 by jar, posted 06-21-2017 4:04 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 445 by jar, posted 06-22-2017 8:04 AM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9762
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 444 of 474 (812995)
    06-22-2017 3:42 AM
    Reply to: Message 441 by ringo
    06-21-2017 3:22 PM


    Re: God Unplugged
    I have a beef with anybody who threatens me.
    This is where you get delivered. Some day you will have no beef. There will be no threat. The goats go their way and the sheep go theirs. And you will be at peace

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 441 by ringo, posted 06-21-2017 3:22 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 458 by ringo, posted 06-22-2017 11:41 AM Phat has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 29364
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 3.3


    Message 445 of 474 (813000)
    06-22-2017 8:04 AM
    Reply to: Message 443 by Phat
    06-22-2017 3:25 AM


    Re: God Unplugged
    Phat writes:

    Your reasoning would have merit IF God expected us to do it all ourselves. Personally, I think your beliefs were largely influenced by how you grew up.

    First, of course a persons beliefs are influenced by how they grow up. That is true for everyone.

    But there are very few instances in the Bible of God not expecting the people to do it all themselves and lots and lots of examples of God actually telling them to do it themselves.

    Do you remember the Bible story of Joseph?


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 443 by Phat, posted 06-22-2017 3:25 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 446 by Phat, posted 06-22-2017 9:56 AM jar has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9762
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 446 of 474 (813013)
    06-22-2017 9:56 AM
    Reply to: Message 445 by jar
    06-22-2017 8:04 AM


    Re: God Unplugged
    jar writes:

    Do you remember the Bible story of Joseph?

    Genesis 37-50....yes I am rereading it now....

    Should I see something new?


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 445 by jar, posted 06-22-2017 8:04 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 448 by jar, posted 06-22-2017 10:16 AM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9762
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 447 of 474 (813020)
    06-22-2017 10:12 AM
    Reply to: Message 440 by Tangle
    06-21-2017 1:45 PM


    Re: God Unplugged
    tangle writes:

    But you've still not answered my questions - he reaches out to some but not others - therefore he's unjust; when he reaches out he removes free will by interfering - therefore he's creating worshipful puppets.

    You and ringo seem to prefer that IF GOD exists that He simply leave you alone.

    I, on the other hand, prefer that IF He exists, then He surely wants to help me and guide me.

    jar points out that (the Bible supports the idea that)God expects personal responsibility from us.. and that WE should expect it of ourselves, whether we believe in God or not.

    Matthew 9:13 writes:

    Go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”

    Now you could argue that GOD is arbitrary and thus you are not buying the Kool-Aid I'm selling. So why not make your own Kool-Aid and drink up?


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 440 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2017 1:45 PM Tangle has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 451 by Tangle, posted 06-22-2017 10:58 AM Phat has responded
     Message 459 by ringo, posted 06-22-2017 11:44 AM Phat has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 29364
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 3.3


    Message 448 of 474 (813023)
    06-22-2017 10:16 AM
    Reply to: Message 446 by Phat
    06-22-2017 9:56 AM


    Re: God Unplugged
    Do you remember the dream and it's interpretation?

    AbE:

    Who is supposed to put stocks away for the future? Who is supposed to prepare for the Lean Years?

    Edited by jar, : hit wrong key


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 446 by Phat, posted 06-22-2017 9:56 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 449 by Phat, posted 06-22-2017 10:28 AM jar has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9762
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 449 of 474 (813025)
    06-22-2017 10:28 AM
    Reply to: Message 448 by jar
    06-22-2017 10:16 AM


    Re: God Unplugged
    I see that the scripture supports your God. In fact, Joseph was a tattletale and a know-it-all and he opened his mouth too much. Favor was upon him, though.

    GotQuestions.org writes:

    In the story of Joseph and his brothers, we see the themes of forgiveness, the father-son bond, sibling rivalry, brotherly love, God’s sovereignty, and God’s greater good in times of suffering. Just like Joseph, we are called to forgive those who have offended us and see life’s experiences as part of God’s plan to help us serve others.

    This would work even if GOD was unknowable or did not exist.

    we are called to forgive those who have offended us and see life’s experiences as part of God’s plan to help us serve others.

    Thus, the charge applies to humans in general.

    Darn it jar, I don't want the God I believe in to be so darn non-favoring. I am like Joseph. My Dad loved me and spoiled me.

    I will give credit to Joseph though. He grew up.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 448 by jar, posted 06-22-2017 10:16 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 450 by jar, posted 06-22-2017 10:36 AM Phat has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 29364
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 3.3


    Message 450 of 474 (813031)
    06-22-2017 10:36 AM
    Reply to: Message 449 by Phat
    06-22-2017 10:28 AM


    Re: God Unplugged
    Phat writes:

    Darn it jar, I don't want the God I believe in to be so darn non-favoring.

    Two different things and as long as you remember that all is fine.

    You create the God you believe in.

    The God in the Joseph fable is the God the author of that story created.

    The God in Genesis 2&3 is kinda like what you want. Even after Adam & Eve screwed up that God made them clothes and stayed in touch with them in future chapters of the story that author created.

    Though the God the author of Genesis 1 created has absolutely no contact or communion with any of the creations.

    We can only worship the gods we create.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 449 by Phat, posted 06-22-2017 10:28 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 452 by Phat, posted 06-22-2017 10:58 AM jar has responded

      
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