Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 122 (8773 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 07-26-2017 6:37 AM
373 online now:
PaulK (1 member, 372 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Tom Larkin
Post Volume:
Total: 814,632 Year: 19,238/21,208 Month: 1,997/3,111 Week: 218/574 Day: 14/46 Hour: 1/0

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
27282930
31
32Next
Author Topic:   The Marketing Of Christianity
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4890
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 451 of 474 (813033)
06-22-2017 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 447 by Phat
06-22-2017 10:12 AM


Re: God Unplugged
Phat writes:

You and ringo seem to prefer that IF GOD exists that He simply leave you alone.

The mind of a believer is a puzzle to me.....

I don't prefer anything, I'm an atheist - god doesn't exist. My questions were an attempt to show you that there's no logic in what you say. God can't reach out to individual people, if he did he'd be unjust, discriminatory and be depriving people of their free will.

jar points out that (the Bible supports the idea that)God expects personal responsibility from us.. and that WE should expect it of ourselves, whether we believe in God or not.

I have no interest in what the bible says, but it's hardly worth saying that we are responsible for ourselves. How could it be otherwise?

Go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Cobblers.

Now you could argue that GOD is arbitrary and thus you are not buying the Kool-Aid I'm selling. So why not make your own Kool-Aid and drink up?

God doesn't exist, Phat - you can, and do, argue anything you like but you'll never get anywhere with it. No one ever has, have they?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 447 by Phat, posted 06-22-2017 10:12 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 453 by Phat, posted 06-22-2017 11:04 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9500
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 452 of 474 (813034)
06-22-2017 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 450 by jar
06-22-2017 10:36 AM


Re: God Unplugged
jar writes:

Do you think the creator of all that is, seen and unseen would really care whether or not anyone believed?

No, but I believe that GOD IF GOD exists expects high standards for us. Tangle claims that God(the one I market, I assume) discriminates and is arbitrary.

Comments?

jar writes:

Do you remember the dream and it's interpretation?

Yes. Basically, some could interpret the dreams as God talking to them. The story would work, however, if we took the responsibility upon ourselves to prepare for the future. Wisdom need not have a source but only a content, you may say.

Who is supposed to put stocks away for the future?
Pharaoh.
Who is supposed to prepare for the Lean Years?
Again, Pharaoh. But the story could apply to Whosoever has ears to hear, in the context of how they receive the message and its content.
jar writes:

We can only worship the gods we create.

Well, to be honest, I'm only now finding out how the God I create actually behaves. That's why I told Tangle to make his own kool-aid and drink it.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 450 by jar, posted 06-22-2017 10:36 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 455 by jar, posted 06-22-2017 11:11 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9500
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 453 of 474 (813038)
06-22-2017 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 451 by Tangle
06-22-2017 10:58 AM


Re: God Unplugged
Tangle writes:

I don't prefer anything, I'm an atheist - god doesn't exist. My questions were an attempt to show you that there's no logic in what you say. God can't reach out to individual people, if he did he'd be unjust, discriminatory and be depriving people of their free will.

You can't know that.

We are simply being hypothetical. I am not asking you to believe in the God i market, nor in jars. I am inviting you to hypothetically create your own god.

God can't reach out to individual people, if he did he'd be unjust, discriminatory and be depriving people of their free will.
OK, good start. You have created a God Who can't reach out to individual people without violating their free will. Am I correct? If so, how is God supposed to get their attention so as to allow them to suspend their disbelief long enough for it to not count as a violation?? (keep in mind we are obviously talking hypothetical)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 451 by Tangle, posted 06-22-2017 10:58 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 454 by Tangle, posted 06-22-2017 11:11 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4890
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 454 of 474 (813040)
06-22-2017 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 453 by Phat
06-22-2017 11:04 AM


Re: God Unplugged
Phat writes:

OK, good start. You have created a God Who can't reach out to individual people without violating their free will. Am I correct?

And discriminating against those he doesn't reach out to.

If the ultimate purpose of this god is to get people into his heaven, and if heaven is the place we're all supposed to want to go to, and if the other place is everlasting fire, then he's giving some a free pass and condemning others - like me - to hell.

If so, how is God supposed to get their attention so as to allow them to suspend their disbelief long enough for it to not count as a violation?? (keep in mind we are obviously talking hypothetical)

He can't. That's my point. Ergo he's either non-existant or unjust. I pick non-existant.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 453 by Phat, posted 06-22-2017 11:04 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29143
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 455 of 474 (813041)
06-22-2017 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 452 by Phat
06-22-2017 10:58 AM


Re: God Unplugged
Phat writes:

Tangle claims that God(the one I market, I assume) discriminates and is arbitrary.

Does your God care more about you than about pond scum?

Phat writes:

Again, Pharaoh. But the story could apply to Whosoever has ears to hear, in the context of how they receive the message and its content.

Only to the extent of hearing a message but then doing the work needed to accomplish the task. Hearing the warning did not fill any warehouses and store rooms; only doing the work filled them.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 452 by Phat, posted 06-22-2017 10:58 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 456 by Phat, posted 06-22-2017 11:18 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9500
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 456 of 474 (813042)
06-22-2017 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 455 by jar
06-22-2017 11:11 AM


Re: God Unplugged
jar writes:

Does your God care more about you than about pond scum?

I can't know.

Darn it...you have just shown me that your whole idea of GOD being unknowable actually makes sense! ahhhhhhh!


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 455 by jar, posted 06-22-2017 11:11 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 457 by jar, posted 06-22-2017 11:40 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29143
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 457 of 474 (813046)
06-22-2017 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 456 by Phat
06-22-2017 11:18 AM


Trying a next step
Phat writes:

Darn it...you have just shown me that your whole idea of GOD being unknowable actually makes sense! ahhhhhhh!

Let's try a next step.

Suppose we stop worrying about what we can't know and move on to what we can know.

If we believe we are charged to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, protect the weak, heal the sick, house the homeless, what can we do to work towards those goals? Those are big things. None of us alone can put aside enough to feed everyone during the seven lean years. We can't fill the store rooms.

But if we work as an individual and also as a communion, as a congregation, as the laity, there are things we can do.

We can oppose political parties that do not make the Charge paramount.

We can oppose a military budget and support a foreign aid budget; forge plows from swords.

We can support "Free Rice" or "The World Community Grid" or "Boys & Girls Clubs".

We can put shopping carts away.

We can kneel down so we talk to kids at their eye level.

We can get stuff off the high shelf for folk and hold a door open.

We can support Planned Parenthood and Salvation Army and Red Cross and give blood and speak out against injustice.

We can listen to the local Imam and try to see through his eyes.

We can (well some of us can, they said my hair was too skinny) donate hair to make wigs for those undergoing chemotherapy. Those of us who cannot can knit animal caps for kids with big floppy ears or stripes like a tiger.

The point is there are a whole bunch of places where we can place our effort where our small contribution adds up to a large benefit.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 456 by Phat, posted 06-22-2017 11:18 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13326
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 458 of 474 (813047)
06-22-2017 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 444 by Phat
06-22-2017 3:42 AM


Re: God Unplugged
Phat writes:

Some day you will have no beef. There will be no threat. The goats go their way and the sheep go theirs. And you will be at peace


How is that not a threat? The goats are cursed into everlasting fire.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 444 by Phat, posted 06-22-2017 3:42 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 461 by Phat, posted 06-22-2017 11:48 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13326
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 459 of 474 (813049)
06-22-2017 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 447 by Phat
06-22-2017 10:12 AM


Re: God Unplugged
Phat writes:

You and ringo seem to prefer that IF GOD exists that He simply leave you alone.
I, on the other hand, prefer that IF He exists, then He surely wants to help me and guide me.


That's not a very good marketing strategy, trying to sell us what YOU want.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 447 by Phat, posted 06-22-2017 10:12 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 460 by Phat, posted 06-22-2017 11:46 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9500
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 460 of 474 (813050)
06-22-2017 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 459 by ringo
06-22-2017 11:44 AM


Re: God Unplugged
That's not a very good marketing strategy, trying to sell us what YOU want.
Im just trying to convince you that you need the product.

I'll split my commission with you if we make a deal.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 459 by ringo, posted 06-22-2017 11:44 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 462 by ringo, posted 06-22-2017 11:52 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9500
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 461 of 474 (813051)
06-22-2017 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 458 by ringo
06-22-2017 11:41 AM


Re: God Unplugged
Phat writes:

Some day you will have no beef. There will be no threat. The goats go their way and the sheep go theirs. And you will be at peace


ringo writes:

How is that not a threat? The goats are cursed into everlasting fire.

Critics would say that the goats cursed themselves.

Don't tell me you are defending the goats now!


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 458 by ringo, posted 06-22-2017 11:41 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 463 by jar, posted 06-22-2017 11:52 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 464 by ringo, posted 06-22-2017 11:53 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13326
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 462 of 474 (813052)
06-22-2017 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 460 by Phat
06-22-2017 11:46 AM


Re: God Unplugged
Phat writes:

Im just trying to convince you that you need the product.


But you're trying to convince me to buy a product that YOU need. You're trying to sell me mud-flaps when I don't have a car.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 460 by Phat, posted 06-22-2017 11:46 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29143
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 463 of 474 (813053)
06-22-2017 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 461 by Phat
06-22-2017 11:48 AM


Re: God Unplugged
The Goats are all followers of Jesus.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 461 by Phat, posted 06-22-2017 11:48 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13326
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 464 of 474 (813054)
06-22-2017 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 461 by Phat
06-22-2017 11:48 AM


Re: God Unplugged
Phat writes:

Critics would say that the goats cursed themselves.


Idiots would say that.

Phat writes:

Don't tell me you are defending the goats now!


Of course I am. How do I know I'm not going to be a goat?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 461 by Phat, posted 06-22-2017 11:48 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 465 by Phat, posted 06-24-2017 10:53 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9500
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 465 of 474 (813212)
06-24-2017 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 464 by ringo
06-22-2017 11:53 AM


Re: God Unplugged
ringo writes:

How do I know I'm not going to be a goat?

Well, you could try as hard as you can to feed as many as you can and give spare change to alleviate any consciousness pangs. Also stay as far from religion as you can. They breed goats.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 464 by ringo, posted 06-22-2017 11:53 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 466 by ringo, posted 06-24-2017 12:26 PM Phat has responded
 Message 467 by jar, posted 06-24-2017 12:42 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
RewPrev1
...
27282930
31
32Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017