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Author | Topic: The Marketing Of Christianity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18248 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Tangle writes: Why does all life have to compete for survival with other life? We'd still have free will, why create a world of suffering and competition? Perhaps pain and suffering (evil) had to exist initially in order to allow free will. Or as I always like to speculate, God only created a possibility of hell...and only created it for the angels. Lucifer, having chosen self exaltation over servant obedience, actualized the possibility. Thus the stage was set for free will and humanity.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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jar Member (Idle past 384 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Phat writes: Does this mean the hungry,naked, sorrowful, and sick in our own tribe or does it emphasize helping the other tribes? According to Jesus God says it specifically means other tribes. Look at Luke 4.
quote: Note the bold and unlined parts. This is the reason Jesus was rejected by the Hebrews; he told them they were NOT the chosen people but rather all people, all things are Gods chosen ones. Today's Christians would act much like the Hebrews of Jesus time when told they aren't the chosen ones; rather all people, all things are Gods chosen ones.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9486 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.6 |
Phat writes: In other words, the U.N. and modern "diplomacy"? Well that's one. But more importantly our all democratic processes; our criminal justice (law, courts and policing), educational and healthcare systems, even - god help me - our churches. All the communal institutions that we've built are civilising processes that have so far prevented us from destroying ourselves.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9486 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.6
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Phat writes: However, why would God judge a believer so harshly and simply let an unbeliever in the door? 1. Because it's a fairy story. 2. Because it's more important to live a decent and honest life than to believe in a sky daddy that needs to be worshipped. 3. Because 'He' thinks you're an idiot for thinking that only those that had the sheer luck to have been born at a time and a place where 'His' ideas were the fashion could be saved and all the rest of humanity - present and future - are damned.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9486 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.6
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Phat writes: Some would argue that we ourselves chose such a world through the initial action of disobedience, though that brings up the question of empathy and foreknowledge of His creation. This is just primitive sillyness. Our world was created about 4.3bn years ago. Life began about 3.8bn years ago. H. sapiens evolved only about 200,000 years ago. We've probably only had real consciousness - ie the ability to define right from wrong and act on it for a small fraction of that time. Where and when is this 'choice' supposed to have been made?
After all, if I know what you are about to do and punish you for it anyway, whats MY overall eternal motive? Well quite.
Moreover, if I so loved the world that I sent my Son to provide an answer to pain and suffering, why did I allow it in the first place? You're beginning to get it.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 402 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
Objectivity requires setting aside your biases and no human being can do that reliably. You may stumble on "the right answer" by yourself. You may convince yourself that you're being objective. But until somebody else looks at your process, you shouldn't be sure you're being objective.
My initial impression is that objectivity is independent of how many people agree....
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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Human beings can set their biases aside in at least limited circumstances, and can verify through careful experiment and observation that they are correct. The theory of gravitation did not fail to be objective before consensus formed.
Consensus occurs when most folks accept a result. Objectivity exists even when your peers are fools. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
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ringo Member (Idle past 402 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
Don't confuse "objective" with "true". Objectivity is about the process, not the result.
The theory of gravitation did not fail to be objective before consensus formed. NoNukes writes:
It can but it seldom does. The fools are more likely to be the lone wolves. Objectivity exists even when your peers are fools. My point being, again, that you shouldn't try to fool yourself into thinking you're "being objective" all by yourself. Asking your peers for confirmation is almost a required step in the objective process.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Don't confuse "objective" with "true". Objectivity is about the process, not the result. I'm not confusing the two. For one thing, a theory are not true in any real sense anyway. Secondly, do you believe you can make a case that Einstein's theory of gravitation was non objective at the time when he had not convinced his peers to accept it? If not then you are just blowing smoke.
It can but it seldom does. The fools are more likely to be the lone wolves. So you assert. But objective, in science at least, is a result of the process and methodology for achieving a result. Consensus comes after the process has worked. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
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ringo Member (Idle past 402 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
Did he ever run it past his colleagues? Would he have claimed his process was objective without running it past his colleagues?
Do you believe you can make the case that Einstein's theory of gravitation was non objective at the time when he had not convinced his peers to accept it? NoNukes writes:
Science is a continuous process. There is no "after". Consensus comes after the process has worked. Consensus is part of the process. "Test your hypothesis" includes peer review.
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Phat Member Posts: 18248 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Science is a continuous process. There is no "after". Whereas Faith is taking a stand.Consensus is part of the process. If I believe something, I may always question my understanding of it, but i won't doubt it. I dont tentatively hold back and not make a choice pending further information, because I have made a choice that what I seek is well with my soul. Perhaps some of you remain atheists pending further information. Or perhaps you have taken a stand in that you cannot know God...thus you have faith in your logic and decision...just as I have faith in my decision. The problem with a lot of you is that you have believed lies about what the Bible is, what it says, and even who wrote it. I respect honesty, however. If you have concluded that there is no God and are honest about it, I will respect your decision. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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jar Member (Idle past 384 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: The problem with a lot of you is that you have believed lies about what the Bible is, what it says, and even who wrote it. And I suppose that you actually have some support for that accusation?
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Tangle Member Posts: 9486 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.6 |
Phat writes: The problem with a lot of you is that you have believed lies about what the Bible is, what it says, and even who wrote it. Now that's a weird thing to say - why do you say it? What are these lies?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18248 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Now that's a weird thing to say - why do you say it? What are these lies? First, Paul is said to be an uninspired man with an agenda to change the religion.This is simply untrue. Paul is an inspired man with a calling. (OK we can use the word agenda, but there is no discernible hostile or selfish motive) Second, too many people believe that the Bible is filled with human invented stories.I believe that this is a lie. Though I cannot prove it, I will assert that the motive of most Bible Debunkers is not to preach truth, but, rather, to discredit the story of Jesus Christ. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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ringo Member (Idle past 402 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You should. If I believe something, I may always question my understanding of it, but i won't doubt it. If you were honest with yourself, I bet you really do have doubts about your beliefs. But you've been told that you shouldn't so you try to convince yourself that you don't.
Phat writes:
How many times have I and others pointed out to you what the Bible says, as opposed to what you've been told the Bible says? YOU are the one who has believed lies about what the Bible says. You also conveniently ignore the bits that you don't like.
The problem with a lot of you is that you have believed lies about what the Bible is, what it says, and even who wrote it.
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