Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 124 (8774 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 07-23-2017 4:50 AM
350 online now:
Dredge, PaulK (2 members, 348 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Tom Larkin
Happy Birthday: anglagard
Post Volume:
Total: 814,421 Year: 19,027/21,208 Month: 1,786/3,111 Week: 7/574 Day: 7/38 Hour: 1/1

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
2526
27
2829
...
32Next
Author Topic:   The Marketing Of Christianity
Phat
Member
Posts: 9493
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 391 of 474 (792632)
10-12-2016 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 379 by Tangle
10-10-2016 5:41 PM


Good and Potential Evil
Tangle writes:

Why does all life have to compete for survival with other life? We'd still have free will, why create a world of suffering and competition?

  • Some would argue that we ourselves chose such a world through the initial action of disobedience, though that brings up the question of empathy and foreknowledge of His creation. After all, if I know what you are about to do and punish you for it anyway, whats MY overall eternal motive?

  • Moreover, if I so loved the world that I sent my Son to provide an answer to pain and suffering, why did I allow it in the first place?

    Perhaps pain and suffering (evil) had to exist initially in order to allow free will.

    Or as I always like to speculate, God only created a possibility of hell...and only created it for the angels. Lucifer, having chosen self exaltation over servant obedience, actualized the possibility. Thus the stage was set for free will and humanity.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 379 by Tangle, posted 10-10-2016 5:41 PM Tangle has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 395 by Tangle, posted 10-12-2016 10:23 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
  • jar
    Member
    Posts: 29140
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.8


    (1)
    Message 392 of 474 (792633)
    10-12-2016 10:03 AM
    Reply to: Message 389 by Phat
    10-12-2016 9:54 AM


    Re: God and suffering
    Phat writes:

    Does this mean the hungry,naked, sorrowful, and sick in our own tribe or does it emphasize helping the other tribes?

    According to Jesus God says it specifically means other tribes. Look at Luke 4.

    quote:
    24 “Truly I tell you,” he continued, “no prophet is accepted in his hometown. 25 I assure you that there were many widows in Israel in Elijah’s time, when the sky was shut for three and a half years and there was a severe famine throughout the land. 26 Yet Elijah was not sent to any of them, but to a widow in Zarephath in the region of Sidon. 27 And there were many in Israel with leprosy in the time of Elisha the prophet, yet not one of them was cleansed—only Naaman the Syrian.”

    Note the bold and unlined parts.

    This is the reason Jesus was rejected by the Hebrews; he told them they were NOT the chosen people but rather all people, all things are Gods chosen ones.

    Today's Christians would act much like the Hebrews of Jesus time when told they aren't the chosen ones; rather all people, all things are Gods chosen ones.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 389 by Phat, posted 10-12-2016 9:54 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 4879
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 4.0


    Message 393 of 474 (792634)
    10-12-2016 10:06 AM
    Reply to: Message 389 by Phat
    10-12-2016 9:54 AM


    Re: God and suffering
    Phat writes:

    In other words, the U.N. and modern "diplomacy"?

    Well that's one. But more importantly our all democratic processes; our criminal justice (law, courts and policing), educational and healthcare systems, even - god help me - our churches.

    All the communal institutions that we've built are civilising processes that have so far prevented us from destroying ourselves.


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

    Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 389 by Phat, posted 10-12-2016 9:54 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 4879
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 4.0


    (1)
    Message 394 of 474 (792635)
    10-12-2016 10:13 AM
    Reply to: Message 387 by Phat
    10-12-2016 9:43 AM


    Re: God and suffering
    Phat writes:

    However, why would God judge a believer so harshly and simply let an unbeliever in the door?

    1. Because it's a fairy story.

    2. Because it's more important to live a decent and honest life than to believe in a sky daddy that needs to be worshipped.

    3. Because 'He' thinks you're an idiot for thinking that only those that had the sheer luck to have been born at a time and a place where 'His' ideas were the fashion could be saved and all the rest of humanity - present and future - are damned.


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

    Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 387 by Phat, posted 10-12-2016 9:43 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 4879
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 4.0


    (1)
    Message 395 of 474 (792637)
    10-12-2016 10:23 AM
    Reply to: Message 391 by Phat
    10-12-2016 10:03 AM


    Re: Good and Potential Evil
    Phat writes:

    Some would argue that we ourselves chose such a world through the initial action of disobedience, though that brings up the question of empathy and foreknowledge of His creation.

    This is just primitive sillyness. Our world was created about 4.3bn years ago. Life began about 3.8bn years ago. H. sapiens evolved only about 200,000 years ago. We've probably only had real consciousness - ie the ability to define right from wrong and act on it for a small fraction of that time.

    Where and when is this 'choice' supposed to have been made?

    After all, if I know what you are about to do and punish you for it anyway, whats MY overall eternal motive?

    Well quite.

    Moreover, if I so loved the world that I sent my Son to provide an answer to pain and suffering, why did I allow it in the first place?

    You're beginning to get it.


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

    Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 391 by Phat, posted 10-12-2016 10:03 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 13315
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 3.0


    Message 396 of 474 (792643)
    10-12-2016 12:06 PM
    Reply to: Message 384 by NoNukes
    10-11-2016 10:07 PM


    Re: Objectivity and Subjectivity
    NoNukes writes:

    My initial impression is that objectivity is independent of how many people agree....


    Objectivity requires setting aside your biases and no human being can do that reliably. You may stumble on "the right answer" by yourself. You may convince yourself that you're being objective. But until somebody else looks at your process, you shouldn't be sure you're being objective.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 384 by NoNukes, posted 10-11-2016 10:07 PM NoNukes has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 397 by NoNukes, posted 10-12-2016 1:31 PM ringo has responded

      
    NoNukes
    Member
    Posts: 9726
    From: Central NC USA
    Joined: 08-13-2010
    Member Rating: 3.0


    (1)
    Message 397 of 474 (792646)
    10-12-2016 1:31 PM
    Reply to: Message 396 by ringo
    10-12-2016 12:06 PM


    Re: Objectivity and Subjectivity
    Human beings can set their biases aside in at least limited circumstances, and can verify through careful experiment and observation that they are correct. The theory of gravitation did not fail to be objective before consensus formed.

    Consensus occurs when most folks accept a result. Objectivity exists even when your peers are fools.


    Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

    History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

    Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 396 by ringo, posted 10-12-2016 12:06 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 398 by ringo, posted 10-13-2016 11:44 AM NoNukes has responded

        
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 13315
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 3.0


    Message 398 of 474 (792709)
    10-13-2016 11:44 AM
    Reply to: Message 397 by NoNukes
    10-12-2016 1:31 PM


    Re: Objectivity and Subjectivity
    NoNukes writes:

    The theory of gravitation did not fail to be objective before consensus formed.


    Don't confuse "objective" with "true". Objectivity is about the process, not the result.

    NoNukes writes:

    Objectivity exists even when your peers are fools.


    It can but it seldom does. The fools are more likely to be the lone wolves.

    My point being, again, that you shouldn't try to fool yourself into thinking you're "being objective" all by yourself. Asking your peers for confirmation is almost a required step in the objective process.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 397 by NoNukes, posted 10-12-2016 1:31 PM NoNukes has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 399 by NoNukes, posted 10-13-2016 12:53 PM ringo has responded

      
    NoNukes
    Member
    Posts: 9726
    From: Central NC USA
    Joined: 08-13-2010
    Member Rating: 3.0


    Message 399 of 474 (792716)
    10-13-2016 12:53 PM
    Reply to: Message 398 by ringo
    10-13-2016 11:44 AM


    Re: Objectivity and Subjectivity
    Don't confuse "objective" with "true". Objectivity is about the process, not the result.

    I'm not confusing the two. For one thing, a theory are not true in any real sense anyway. Secondly, do you believe you can make a case that Einstein's theory of gravitation was non objective at the time when he had not convinced his peers to accept it? If not then you are just blowing smoke.

    It can but it seldom does. The fools are more likely to be the lone wolves.

    So you assert. But objective, in science at least, is a result of the process and methodology for achieving a result. Consensus comes after the process has worked.

    Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


    Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

    History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

    Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 398 by ringo, posted 10-13-2016 11:44 AM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 400 by ringo, posted 10-13-2016 12:59 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

        
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 13315
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 3.0


    Message 400 of 474 (792717)
    10-13-2016 12:59 PM
    Reply to: Message 399 by NoNukes
    10-13-2016 12:53 PM


    Re: Objectivity and Subjectivity
    NoNukes writes:

    Do you believe you can make the case that Einstein's theory of gravitation was non objective at the time when he had not convinced his peers to accept it?


    Did he ever run it past his colleagues? Would he have claimed his process was objective without running it past his colleagues?

    NoNukes writes:

    Consensus comes after the process has worked.


    Science is a continuous process. There is no "after".

    Consensus is part of the process. "Test your hypothesis" includes peer review.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 399 by NoNukes, posted 10-13-2016 12:53 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 401 by Phat, posted 10-14-2016 7:00 PM ringo has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9493
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 2.3


    Message 401 of 474 (792894)
    10-14-2016 7:00 PM
    Reply to: Message 400 by ringo
    10-13-2016 12:59 PM


    Re: Objectivity and Subjectivity
    Science is a continuous process. There is no "after".
    Consensus is part of the process.
    Whereas Faith is taking a stand.

    If I believe something, I may always question my understanding of it, but i won't doubt it. I dont tentatively hold back and not make a choice pending further information, because I have made a choice that what I seek is well with my soul.

    Perhaps some of you remain atheists pending further information. Or perhaps you have taken a stand in that you cannot know God...thus you have faith in your logic and decision...just as I have faith in my decision.

    The problem with a lot of you is that you have believed lies about what the Bible is, what it says, and even who wrote it.

    I respect honesty, however. If you have concluded that there is no God and are honest about it, I will respect your decision.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 400 by ringo, posted 10-13-2016 12:59 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 402 by jar, posted 10-14-2016 10:02 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 403 by Tangle, posted 10-15-2016 3:07 AM Phat has responded
     Message 405 by ringo, posted 10-15-2016 11:45 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 29140
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.8


    Message 402 of 474 (792900)
    10-14-2016 10:02 PM
    Reply to: Message 401 by Phat
    10-14-2016 7:00 PM


    Re: Objectivity and Subjectivity
    Phat writes:

    The problem with a lot of you is that you have believed lies about what the Bible is, what it says, and even who wrote it.

    And I suppose that you actually have some support for that accusation?


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 401 by Phat, posted 10-14-2016 7:00 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 4879
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 4.0


    Message 403 of 474 (792907)
    10-15-2016 3:07 AM
    Reply to: Message 401 by Phat
    10-14-2016 7:00 PM


    Re: Objectivity and Subjectivity
    Phat writes:

    The problem with a lot of you is that you have believed lies about what the Bible is, what it says, and even who wrote it.

    Now that's a weird thing to say - why do you say it? What are these lies?


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

    Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 401 by Phat, posted 10-14-2016 7:00 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 404 by Phat, posted 10-15-2016 9:09 AM Tangle has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9493
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 2.3


    Message 404 of 474 (792910)
    10-15-2016 9:09 AM
    Reply to: Message 403 by Tangle
    10-15-2016 3:07 AM


    Re: Objectivity and Subjectivity
    Now that's a weird thing to say - why do you say it? What are these lies?

    First, Paul is said to be an uninspired man with an agenda to change the religion.
    This is simply untrue. Paul is an inspired man with a calling. (OK we can use the word agenda, but there is no discernible hostile or selfish motive)

    Second, too many people believe that the Bible is filled with human invented stories.
    I believe that this is a lie. Though I cannot prove it, I will assert that the motive of most Bible Debunkers is not to preach truth, but, rather, to discredit the story of Jesus Christ.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 403 by Tangle, posted 10-15-2016 3:07 AM Tangle has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 406 by Tangle, posted 10-15-2016 11:52 AM Phat has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 13315
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 3.0


    Message 405 of 474 (792923)
    10-15-2016 11:45 AM
    Reply to: Message 401 by Phat
    10-14-2016 7:00 PM


    Re: Objectivity and Subjectivity
    Phat writes:

    If I believe something, I may always question my understanding of it, but i won't doubt it.


    You should.

    If you were honest with yourself, I bet you really do have doubts about your beliefs. But you've been told that you shouldn't so you try to convince yourself that you don't.

    Phat writes:

    The problem with a lot of you is that you have believed lies about what the Bible is, what it says, and even who wrote it.


    How many times have I and others pointed out to you what the Bible says, as opposed to what you've been told the Bible says? YOU are the one who has believed lies about what the Bible says. You also conveniently ignore the bits that you don't like.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 401 by Phat, posted 10-14-2016 7:00 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    RewPrev1
    ...
    2526
    27
    2829
    ...
    32Next
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.0 Beta
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017