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Author Topic:   The Marketing Of Christianity
ringo
Member
Posts: 14510
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 542 of 591 (826412)
12-30-2017 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 541 by Phat
12-30-2017 12:25 PM


Re: God Unplugged
Phat writes:

All that He created was the possibility of them.


Sure. And if I dig a tiger trap in my front yard, all I'm creating is the "possibility" of trapping tigers. (Since there aren't many tigers around here, the probability is that I'll catch children instead.)

Phat writes:

I refuse to be left holding the bag for how my life turns out....


That says it all, doesn't it?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 541 by Phat, posted 12-30-2017 12:25 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 543 by Phat, posted 12-30-2017 2:17 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10669
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 543 of 591 (826419)
12-30-2017 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 542 by ringo
12-30-2017 12:32 PM


Re: God Unplugged
Phat writes:

I refuse to be left holding the bag for how my life turns out....


ringo writes:

That says it all, doesn't it?

Yes, basically it does. I will forever remain a believer,hopefully.

You have admitted before that you never truly were one. A lot of it boils down to what we actually believe.

One fear that I have is that my spirituality becomes (or already is) a form of addiction. Kinda like playing the longshot. Perhaps the probability of God (and a friendly One at that) is a billion to one, but think of the payoff!


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 542 by ringo, posted 12-30-2017 12:32 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 546 by ringo, posted 01-02-2018 10:43 AM Phat has responded
 Message 554 by Stile, posted 01-09-2018 9:42 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10669
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 544 of 591 (826436)
12-31-2017 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 532 by Stile
12-05-2017 2:45 PM


Re: Believe vs. Non-Belief
Stile,replying to Faith writes:

If your beliefs were based on the evidence... then you wouldn't be able to say such a thing.
Since further evidence is the only way to change any idea that's actually based on evidence.

Therefore, the evidence you saw led you to your Christian beliefs, but your Christian beliefs are actually based on something else.

Some people are actually defending their own will. They refuse to budge or entertain any further evidence because they need to believe and to believe without reservation or compromise. I used to feel that way, but more and more I allow myself to question and occasionally doubt because I believe that God understands me. He won't smite me simply for daring to ask a question nor to even express serious doubt.

That's what others don't understand. They fear to challenge their own willful decision as if it is somehow blasphemous to do so.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 532 by Stile, posted 12-05-2017 2:45 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10669
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 545 of 591 (826437)
12-31-2017 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by jar
03-25-2016 7:49 PM


Re: Christianity 101
Im bored...so I'm stirring up a discussion. Hope you have a nice New years, by the way.

jar writes:

Stop just believing what you have been told because it is comforting. See what the actual evidence shows.

First, there was no sudden or dramatic changes. Paul never experienced Jesus Death,Burial, and Resurrection except from being told the stories AFTER whatever actually happened on his way to Damascus. And very little changed about Paul after the incident; he was still the fanatic, set in his ways, not open to compromise unless it is in his advantage, opinionated person that he was before the incident.

Plus, all that is still five to ten years after Jesus death.

There was very little change in the Disciples either; remember Peter had been willing to draw sword when Jesus was arrested.

When you mention that little actually changes in a person, do you mean short term or long term?
I ask myself if I am the same basic believer that I was in 2004 when I arrived at EvC.
jar,from earlier belief statement writes:

(concerning confirmation)

Bishop: Will you continue in the apostles' teaching and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in the prayers? What would you define briefly as the apostles teaching?

People: I will, with God's help. How would you describe God's help? What form does it take?

Bishop: Will you persevere in resisting evil, and, whenever you fall into sin, repent and return to the Lord?

People: I will, with God's help.

Bishop: Will you proclaim by word and example the Good News of God in Christ?

People: I will, with God's help. In a sentence or so, explain the Good News of God in Christ to us.

We discussed earlier how Saul remained similar as Paul and in what ways he changed. You also have mentioned that there is no such thing as sudden transformation...that it is a willful and daily process. I agree with that.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by jar, posted 03-25-2016 7:49 PM jar has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14510
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 546 of 591 (826458)
01-02-2018 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 543 by Phat
12-30-2017 2:17 PM


Re: God Unplugged
Phat writes:

Phat writes:

I refuse to be left holding the bag for how my life turns out....

ringo writes:

That says it all, doesn't it?


Yes, basically it does. I will forever remain a believer,hopefully.

That's not what I meant. You said that you refuse to take responsibility. Believing in God has little to do with that.

Phat writes:

Perhaps the probability of God (and a friendly One at that) is a billion to one, but think of the payoff!


As I've said before, it's the payoff that I don't want.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 543 by Phat, posted 12-30-2017 2:17 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 547 by Phat, posted 01-02-2018 11:38 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10669
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 547 of 591 (826463)
01-02-2018 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 546 by ringo
01-02-2018 10:43 AM


Re: God Unplugged
You said that you refuse to take responsibility. Believing in God has little to do with that.
On the contrary, people need to take responsibility for their belief as well as their actions. Owning a belief is making a commitment. You said before that even as a child you never wanted to take the responsibility of surrendering yourself to God...perhaps because you saw a hollow symbolism. You were, however, responsible for your choice. Its not that atheists have no beliefs. They believe that they have made the right choice. Some would argue that reality based on evidence is not a choice but a default. I would argue that it nonetheless is a choice if other options have been turned down.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 546 by ringo, posted 01-02-2018 10:43 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 548 by ringo, posted 01-02-2018 11:44 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14510
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 548 of 591 (826465)
01-02-2018 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 547 by Phat
01-02-2018 11:38 AM


Re: God Unplugged
Phat writes:

You said before that even as a child you never wanted to take the responsibility of surrendering yourself to God...


I don't think I ever said that.

It's self-contradictory, isn't it? How is surrendering yourself to God taking responsibility?

Phat writes:

Its not that atheists have no beliefs. They believe that they have made the right choice.


I didn't make any choice. My beliefs evaporated on their own. As I've said many, many times before, if there was a choice to make, I would have chosen to keep them.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 547 by Phat, posted 01-02-2018 11:38 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 549 by Phat, posted 01-02-2018 12:00 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10669
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 549 of 591 (826467)
01-02-2018 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 548 by ringo
01-02-2018 11:44 AM


Re: God Unplugged
Beliefs don't just evaporate on their own. One consciously chooses to discard them.

Take your own example:

As I've said before, it's the payoff that I don't want.
You are choosing not to gamble. In a sense, choosing a belief is a bit like a gamble.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 548 by ringo, posted 01-02-2018 11:44 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 550 by ringo, posted 01-02-2018 12:31 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14510
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 550 of 591 (826471)
01-02-2018 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 549 by Phat
01-02-2018 12:00 PM


Re: God Unplugged
Phat writes:

Beliefs don't just evaporate on their own. One consciously chooses to discard them.


Nonsense.

Phat writes:

You are choosing not to gamble.


That has nothing to do with belief.

Phat writes:

In a sense, choosing a belief is a bit like a gamble.


Choosing a belief is a gamble just like choosing a number on the roulette wheel is a gamble. But who actually chooses a belief? You're pretty much stuck with your parents' beliefs.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 549 by Phat, posted 01-02-2018 12:00 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 551 by Phat, posted 01-05-2018 3:43 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10669
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 551 of 591 (826608)
01-05-2018 3:43 AM
Reply to: Message 550 by ringo
01-02-2018 12:31 PM


Re: God Unplugged
ringo writes:

But who actually chooses a belief?

Granted. More properly I would say that I chose to believe. Even my parents never mentioned going that far. To them, church was a social event.

Of course, you could argue that was Santa Claus mentioned in church, I may well have chosen him.

My point is that you were obviously part of the scene and were told what to do, but you never chose to believe...which may simply be your character makeup.

One bad trait of Biblical Christians is that they never encourage questions nor doubts.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 550 by ringo, posted 01-02-2018 12:31 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 552 by ringo, posted 01-07-2018 2:34 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14510
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 552 of 591 (826697)
01-07-2018 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 551 by Phat
01-05-2018 3:43 AM


Re: God Unplugged
Phat writes:

More properly I would say that I chose to believe.


You can choose to profess a belief (whether you actually believe it or not). Apologetics tends to be a form of whistling in the dark for people who wish they had the belief that they think they should have.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 551 by Phat, posted 01-05-2018 3:43 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 553 by Phat, posted 01-08-2018 4:21 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10669
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 553 of 591 (826727)
01-08-2018 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 552 by ringo
01-07-2018 2:34 PM


Re: God Unplugged
Not to mention that even if you did believe, the God you would embrace is likely much different from mine. Your God would likely be a hands-off God Who would step back and let His children grow up and make mistakes.

Thus perhaps for you, it does make more sense to wait. it's like ordering a product available later and wisely withholding payment until it actually comes in.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 552 by ringo, posted 01-07-2018 2:34 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 555 by ringo, posted 01-09-2018 11:23 AM Phat has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3142
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


(3)
Message 554 of 591 (826748)
01-09-2018 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 543 by Phat
12-30-2017 2:17 PM


Re: God Unplugged
Phat writes:

One fear that I have is that my spirituality becomes (or already is) a form of addiction. Kinda like playing the longshot. Perhaps the probability of God (and a friendly One at that) is a billion to one, but think of the payoff!

But that's not a good thing.

If God requires you to believe in Him in order to "get the payoff" then that God isn't worthy of being respected and should be educated for His immaturity.

If God really is good, then He wouldn't care if you believe in Him or not. He would only care about how good you are (and try to be).
If a really good God exists, there is no gamble because there is no game. Why would there be? How could any gamble or game have any part of a really good God?

That's the good part of a good God. You don't have to worry about if your gamble is going to pay off. You don't have to worry if you're playing the game right. The plan is simple: be good. Whether you're doing that or not is (generally) easy to discover: are the people you're affecting happy by the way you interact with them?

Be good.
Adjust your actions to be better when you discover that you're actually hurting someone.

If there's a good God - He'll respect that and be happy with you.
If there's not a good God and some other God wants something else - why should anyone care?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 543 by Phat, posted 12-30-2017 2:17 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 14510
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 555 of 591 (826761)
01-09-2018 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 553 by Phat
01-08-2018 4:21 PM


Re: God Unplugged
Phat writes:

Not to mention that even if you did believe, the God you would embrace is likely much different from mine.


Because everybody makes up their own God.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 553 by Phat, posted 01-08-2018 4:21 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 556 by Phat, posted 01-09-2018 2:44 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10669
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 556 of 591 (826786)
01-09-2018 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 555 by ringo
01-09-2018 11:23 AM


Re: God Unplugged
Hopefully people at least try and believe in a bigger God than the one they can make up. Is your imaginary God bigger than what science can prove? if not, you let the facts get in the way. May as well stick with Long John Silver!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 555 by ringo, posted 01-09-2018 11:23 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 557 by ringo, posted 01-26-2018 11:22 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 574 by dwise1, posted 03-14-2018 2:34 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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