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Author Topic:   Brexit - Should they stay or should they go?
ringo
Member
Posts: 13641
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 121 of 236 (786798)
06-27-2016 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by caffeine
06-27-2016 1:04 PM


Re: Tribalism
caffeine writes:

One of the things that I think drove the Brexit vote was opposition to the EU commission's failed attempts to get member-states to accept refugees.


The EU's failures seem like a reasonable enough reason to exit.

Conversely, if the EU considers Britain such a valuable partner, isn't it likely that they'll negotiate a new partnership that is beneficial to both sides?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by caffeine, posted 06-27-2016 1:04 PM caffeine has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Tangle, posted 06-27-2016 1:30 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply
 Message 124 by caffeine, posted 06-27-2016 2:07 PM ringo has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5065
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 122 of 236 (786800)
06-27-2016 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by ringo
06-27-2016 1:14 PM


Re: Tribalism
ringo writes:

Conversely, if the EU considers Britain such a valuable partner, isn't it likely that they'll negotiate a new partnership that is beneficial to both sides?

It's a difficult calculation. On the one hand they need the UK as a trading partner, on the other hand if they are open to a compromise they invite other states to leave too.

The way it's sounding is that they'll be open to a free trade deal - at a price, but free movement of people may be something they won't give way on. Our side seems to be softening on that last - which is outrageous. Boris will find his head on a spike at Tower Hill if he's not very careful.

But it's not even started yet.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by ringo, posted 06-27-2016 1:14 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

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Diomedes
Member
Posts: 662
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 123 of 236 (786804)
06-27-2016 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Tangle
06-27-2016 1:30 PM


Re: Tribalism
It's a difficult calculation. On the one hand they need the UK as a trading partner, on the other hand if they are open to a compromise they invite other states to leave too.

That's the big chess game right now. The EU leadership is fully aware of the fact that other countries are watching this carefully, wondering about the feasibility of their own referendums.

The way it's sounding is that they'll be open to a free trade deal - at a price, but free movement of people may be something they won't give way on. Our side seems to be softening on that last - which is outrageous.

I think the UK conservatives would be crucified if they suddenly started to go lax on movement of people, since immigration control was the primary reason stipulated from the Leave camp.

The big issue we have now is several bombastic politicians both in the UK and in the EU that will be more concerned about saving face and maintaining power as opposed to doing what's right. That's politics for you.

The big issue globally is the uncertainty. The longer this drags on, the worse things will get.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Tangle, posted 06-27-2016 1:30 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1346
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 124 of 236 (786805)
06-27-2016 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by ringo
06-27-2016 1:14 PM


Re: Tribalism
The EU's failures seem like a reasonable enough reason to exit.

Not unless you think every policy the Federal government fails to carry out is good reason for Sakatchewan to secede. Obviously giving up your right to vote is not a way to succeed in changing an institution's policy.

But given that those who wanted to leave the EU are also those who most wanted the Commission's plans for refugees to fail, I'm somewhat baffled as to what point you're trying to make.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by ringo, posted 06-27-2016 1:14 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by ringo, posted 06-28-2016 12:30 PM caffeine has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13641
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 125 of 236 (786853)
06-28-2016 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by caffeine
06-27-2016 2:07 PM


Re: Tribalism
caffeine writes:

Not unless you think every policy the Federal government fails to carry out is good reason for Sakatchewan to secede.


Yes, I think failures on the part of the federal government would be valid reasons for provinces to consider separation. That's been happening in Quebec for decades with two referendums. Any time you're a member of a group it's healthy to think about why you might want to get out.

caffeine writes:

... given that those who wanted to leave the EU are also those who most wanted the Commission's plans for refugees to fail....


Is that a given? I know that the people who voted for exit are being branded as racists but I'm not buying it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by caffeine, posted 06-27-2016 2:07 PM caffeine has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by caffeine, posted 06-29-2016 3:11 AM ringo has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 879
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 126 of 236 (786868)
06-28-2016 4:20 PM


WSJ article on pound strength
quote:

British Pound Gains Ground, but Few Predict a Recovery

Sterling remains near 31-year lows
....
analysts see Tuesday’s gains as a pause in a long period of weakness for the pound. The U.K. currency is also vulnerable because of the country’s large current-account deficit and an expectation foreign investment will fall following last Thursday’s vote.

http://www.wsj.com/...py-asian-trade-after-brexit-1467088041


Hardly a good sign for those who supported exit. This was so predictable.

On the plus side, I heard there are (already!) some 3-4 million signatures for a new vote. I hope there is a genuine tie-breaker vote avaliable soon. I hope.


Replies to this message:
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LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 879
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 127 of 236 (786869)
06-28-2016 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by LamarkNewAge
06-28-2016 4:20 PM


The article needs to be found in google to read in it's entirety
My link above won't enable you to read it, but you need to find it in google to read. WSJ articles are tricky to read. It is an hour old. I found it by typing "british pound" into google. Just quote some sentences to find it.

Anyway, here is an important part, from the article, I want people to see.

quote:

A weaker currency, though, could also stoke inflation, making it potentially harder for the Bank of England to reduce interest rates.

Analysts also highlight the U.K.’s record current-account deficit, which is sustained by large inflows of foreign capital, as a risk to sterling. If the investors providing those inflows go sour on the U.K., demand for sterling would slump and the pound’s value could plummet further.


Higher interest rates means less money for spending on programs plus it means higher taxes. Brexit brought this about and it was very predictable. Economics 101.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by LamarkNewAge, posted 06-28-2016 4:20 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

    
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1346
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 128 of 236 (786898)
06-29-2016 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by ringo
06-28-2016 12:30 PM


Re: Tribalism
Yes, I think failures on the part of the federal government would be valid reasons for provinces to consider separation. That's been happening in Quebec for decades with two referendums. Any time you're a member of a group it's healthy to think about why you might want to get out.

Seems an odd attitude to me. The time to get out would be the time at which it appears that the European Commission succeeded in every one of it's proposals, because this would mean we were actually in the situation Euroskeptics complained about - the dictatorial central power which could act without regard for the interests of the member states. If the EU is functioning as it should then the Commission should not be able to impose its will.

Is that a given? I know that the people who voted for exit are being branded as racists but I'm not buying it.

I didn't say they were racists; but yes it is a given that they were opposed to the Commission's refugee plan. Not necessarily all of them I doubt 17 million people were of one mind; but the primary concern stated by leave voters was that immigration was too high.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by ringo, posted 06-28-2016 12:30 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by ringo, posted 06-29-2016 12:43 PM caffeine has responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3949
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 129 of 236 (786907)
06-29-2016 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Big_Al35
06-25-2016 12:48 PM


Re: The Rest
quote:
Alternatively, maybe people in the UK are more hateful. I would still like to believe it's thanks to a better understanding.

Nope. It's down to not understanding what they were voting for and the time honoured Pavlovian response to the word 'immigrants'.

Over estimate the average person in the streets ability to vote in their own best interest at your peril.


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 29364
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 130 of 236 (786910)
06-29-2016 10:47 AM


The Important stuff.
So enough of the irrelevancies; what about the important stuff.

Does this mean that in the future UK teams will not be eligible to play in the Euro?

Will it mean UK golfers will not be eligible to play in the Ryder Cup series?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 5065
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


(2)
Message 131 of 236 (786911)
06-29-2016 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by jar
06-29-2016 10:47 AM


Re: The Important stuff.
Jar writes:

So enough of the irrelevancies; what about the important stuff.
Does this mean that in the future UK teams will not be eligible to play in the Euro?

Will it mean UK golfers will not be eligible to play in the Ryder Cup series?

We're still part of Europe - there hasn't been any movement of tectonic pates.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by jar, posted 06-29-2016 10:47 AM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Diomedes, posted 06-30-2016 9:32 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13641
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 132 of 236 (786925)
06-29-2016 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by caffeine
06-29-2016 3:11 AM


Re: Tribalism
caffeine writes:

The time to get out would be the time at which it appears that the European Commission succeeded in every one of it's proposals, because this would mean we were actually in the situation Euroskeptics complained about - the dictatorial central power which could act without regard for the interests of the member states.


That's what seems like an odd attitude to me. I would want to get out when I found out that there was a dictatorial attitude, not after waiting to see if they were any good at it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by caffeine, posted 06-29-2016 3:11 AM caffeine has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by caffeine, posted 06-29-2016 1:56 PM ringo has responded

  
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1346
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 133 of 236 (786934)
06-29-2016 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by ringo
06-29-2016 12:43 PM


Re: Tribalism
That's what seems like an odd attitude to me. I would want to get out when I found out that there was a dictatorial attitude, not after waiting to see if they were any good at it.

'Dictatoial attitude' in this context meaning what? Proposing a policy?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by ringo, posted 06-29-2016 12:43 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by ringo, posted 06-30-2016 12:13 PM caffeine has responded

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 662
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 134 of 236 (786979)
06-30-2016 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by Tangle
06-29-2016 11:29 AM


Boris isn't running to be PM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...us_5774fc00e4b042fba1cf2e4e

quote:
LONDON, June 30 (Reuters) - Former London mayor Boris Johnson, runaway bookmakers’ favorite to become Britain’s prime minister, abruptly pulled out of the race on Thursday in a shock announcement less than a week after leading the campaign to pull the country out of the EU.

Johnson‘s announcement, to audible gasps from a roomful of journalists and supporters, was the biggest political surprise since Prime Minister David Cameron quit on Friday, the morning after losing the referendum on British membership in the bloc.

Johnson‘s withdrawal makes Theresa May, the interior minister who backed remaining in the EU, the new favorite to succeed Cameron.


Well that is a bit of a shock. I wonder if Boris was never expecting Leave to win and now that it has, he doesn't want to be at the helm. Probably realizing how rocky the waters will be moving forward.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5765
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 135 of 236 (786981)
06-30-2016 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by Diomedes
06-30-2016 9:32 AM


Re: Boris isn't running to be PM
Why would he want to be PM while Britain burns(figuratively not literally)?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Diomedes, posted 06-30-2016 9:32 AM Diomedes has not yet responded

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