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Author Topic:   A Believers Critique Of The Humanist Manifesto
Phat
Member
Posts: 9762
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 61 of 110 (812687)
06-19-2017 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by ringo
08-30-2016 11:58 AM


Re: End Times?
ringo writes:

I know what the fundies think. The point is that they're wrong.
It's the fundies who will follow the AntiChrist while the rest of the world gets more secular. Fundies are just itching for somebody like Ronald Reagan to take us back to the "good old days". THAT is the AntiChrist, who offers the (fundy) world easy solutions to their problems.

This was circulating on Facebook, recently. I don't know how accurate it is....World’s Top Religious Leaders Issue Rare Joint Appeal

As you know, conservative Christians warn this to be an omen of a false global religion.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by ringo, posted 08-30-2016 11:58 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 06-19-2017 3:22 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 63 by ringo, posted 06-20-2017 12:20 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29364
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 62 of 110 (812695)
06-19-2017 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Phat
06-19-2017 1:35 PM


Re: End Times?
Phat writes:

As you know, conservative Christians warn this to be an omen of a false global religion.

Why should the beliefs of conservative Christians be anything but comedic relief?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Phat, posted 06-19-2017 1:35 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13641
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 63 of 110 (812828)
06-20-2017 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Phat
06-19-2017 1:35 PM


Re: End Times?
Phat writes:

As you know, conservative Christians warn this to be an omen of a false global religion.


Conservative Christians will grasp at every straw to justify their paranoia. "The millennium" has been any minute now for more than a millennium. Two millennia from now, when Botswana is the world superpower, conservative Christians will call it a fulfillment of prophecy.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Phat, posted 06-19-2017 1:35 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 06-21-2017 1:52 PM ringo has responded
 Message 69 by Phat, posted 06-26-2017 3:17 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9762
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 64 of 110 (812852)
06-20-2017 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Phat
08-30-2016 12:20 PM


Re: End Times?
Phat,August 30, 2016 writes:

I don't plan to vote for Trump. He won't get elected.
As for the yearning for the good old days, I will admit that this may be a problem for many so-called Biblical Christians. Jesus would have no problem suffering...but we do.

Shows that I don't know the future any better than anybody else!

Seriously though...I dont trust the religious leaders....no matter which religion they embrace. Billy Graham was the last good one that we Christians had...nobody on TV or radio is any good it seems. Of course, I am taught to trust Jesus first....and that has been my modus operendi ever since. I also like discussing this stuff here at EvC> We never seem to agree, though.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Phat, posted 08-30-2016 12:20 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9762
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 65 of 110 (812948)
06-21-2017 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Faith
08-29-2016 5:11 AM


Re: End Times?
Faith writes:

I'm also not sure what to expect but more and more Christians are expecting some kind of worldwide political manifestation soon that is thought of as a Final Act before Jesus returns. But it's not a nonreligious system, it's a religion that will present itself as Christianity though also incorporating most of the religions of the world, and most of the world will consider it to be Christianity. The whole idea of an Antichrist doesn't make sense unless he puts himself in the place of Christ and heads up a religion in Christ's name. (My favorite for the position is the Pope.)

What did you think of this link that I presented in this thread?
World’s Top Religious Leaders Issue Rare Joint Appeal
article writes:

In a rare move, major religious leaders ― from Pope Francis to the Dalai Lama ― issued a joint appeal Wednesday asking people to follow a simple bit of advice: Make friends with people of other faiths.

“Our advice is to make friends to followers of all religions,” Ayatollah Sayyid Fadhel Al-Milani, one of the U.K.’s most senior Shia Muslim clerics, said in a video recording.

“Personal contact, personal friendship, then we can exchange a deeper level of experience,” the Dalai Lama said.

Comments?

For the record, I am against war with Islam. There would be no clear winners in any natural war. After all, what are we fighting for? More to the point WHO are we fighting for?

Edited by Phat, : added jabberwocky


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Faith, posted 08-29-2016 5:11 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9762
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 66 of 110 (812949)
06-21-2017 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by ringo
06-20-2017 12:20 PM


Re: End Times?
jar writes:

Why should the beliefs of conservative Christians be anything but comedic relief?

Aren't YOU a Christian? and now that I think of it...aren't you conservative also?

ringo writes:

Conservative Christians will grasp at every straw to justify their paranoia.

Critics would say that the liberal Christians will embrace the fake new world religion. Comments?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by ringo, posted 06-20-2017 12:20 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by ringo, posted 06-21-2017 3:08 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 68 by jar, posted 06-21-2017 4:01 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13641
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 67 of 110 (812950)
06-21-2017 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Phat
06-21-2017 1:52 PM


Re: End Times?
Phat writes:

Critics would say that the liberal Christians will embrace the fake new world religion. Comments?


Conservative Christians have already embraced a fake religion.

"New world religion" is a fantasy. The importance of religion is declining and the existing religions are fragmenting.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 06-21-2017 1:52 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29364
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


(3)
Message 68 of 110 (812955)
06-21-2017 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Phat
06-21-2017 1:52 PM


Re: End Times?
Phat writes:

Aren't YOU a Christian? and now that I think of it...aren't you conservative also?

I am a Christian.

I am a conservative, but not a raving lunatic fascist conservative which seems the norm in today's Republican cabal.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 06-21-2017 1:52 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9762
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 69 of 110 (813309)
06-26-2017 3:17 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by ringo
06-20-2017 12:20 PM


The Right To Refuse Service
ringo writes:

"The millennium" has been any minute now for more than a millennium. Two millennia from now, when Botswana is the world superpower, conservative Christians will call it a fulfillment of prophecy.

2 Peter 3:3-7 writes:

First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

I'm not saying it must happen. What I suggest is that if it DID happen, and IF the GOD I market were real, you likely would defiantly refuse Him even to the point of death...simply because you valued your own logic more than you did His.

The importance of religion is declining and the existing religions are fragmenting.
And yet the importance of relationship is at an all time high.

Edited by Phat, : added


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by ringo, posted 06-20-2017 12:20 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by ringo, posted 06-26-2017 11:39 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13641
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 70 of 110 (813328)
06-26-2017 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Phat
06-26-2017 3:17 AM


Re: The Right To Refuse Service
Phat writes:

What I suggest is that if it DID happen, and IF the GOD I market were real, you likely would defiantly refuse Him even to the point of death...


Why do you keep saying that? How many times do I have to tell you it isn't true?

Phat writes:

And yet the importance of relationship is at an all time high.


You have not demonstrated that your religion includes any "relationship" with God. The importance of relationship may be at an all time high - whatever that means - but do fake relationships or imagined relationships count?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Phat, posted 06-26-2017 3:17 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Phat, posted 06-27-2017 1:12 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9762
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 71 of 110 (813435)
06-27-2017 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by ringo
06-26-2017 11:39 AM


Imagine If You Dare
ringo writes:

You have not demonstrated that your religion includes any "relationship" with God.

How would such a relationship be demonstrated?

Imagined relationships count. Otherwise, we have a huge traffic jam behind a lack of evidence. I have pointed out that evidence is not a prerequisite unless one's faith depends solely on it. There really isn't such a thing as an evidenced belief. My point is not that you would reject the GOD who is. You would accept GOD on the contingency of evidence. My point is the God I market won't give you the evidence. I assert that you use the lack of evidence as a sticking point and won't step into belief. I am not marketing Leprechauns, here.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by ringo, posted 06-26-2017 11:39 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Tangle, posted 06-27-2017 1:27 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 73 by ringo, posted 06-27-2017 1:32 PM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5065
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 72 of 110 (813438)
06-27-2017 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Phat
06-27-2017 1:12 PM


Re: Imagine If You Dare
Phat writes:

I am not marketing Leprechauns, here.

But you are Phat, you are.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Phat, posted 06-27-2017 1:12 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13641
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 73 of 110 (813441)
06-27-2017 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Phat
06-27-2017 1:12 PM


Re: Imagine If You Dare
Phat writes:

How would such a relationship be demonstrated?


You tell me. You're the one who claims to have the relationship. How is your relationship with God different from my relationship with long John Silver?

Phat writes:

Otherwise, we have a huge traffic jam behind a lack of evidence.


Yes, we do. A traffic jam is not something that can just be ignored.

Phat writes:

My point is the God I market won't give you the evidence.


And I'm not buyin' it.

Phat writes:

I assert that you use the lack of evidence as a sticking point and won't step into belief.


When I'm buying a car, if it won't run that's a sticking point. Yes.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Phat, posted 06-27-2017 1:12 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-27-2017 2:12 PM ringo has responded
 Message 75 by Phat, posted 06-27-2017 10:57 PM ringo has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11707
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 74 of 110 (813446)
06-27-2017 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by ringo
06-27-2017 1:32 PM


Re: Imagine If You Dare
How is your relationship with God different from my relationship with long John Silver?

God responds


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by ringo, posted 06-27-2017 1:32 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by ringo, posted 06-28-2017 3:07 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9762
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 75 of 110 (813480)
06-27-2017 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by ringo
06-27-2017 1:32 PM


Re: Imagine If You Dare
ringo writes:

When I'm buying a car if it won't run that's a sticking point. Yes.

The point is that you are not "buying" a belief. You are allowing the possibility without evidence.

Earlier, I asserted:

Phat writes:

What I suggest is that if it DID happen, and IF the GOD I market were real, you likely would defiantly refuse Him even to the point of death...


ringo writes:

Why do you keep saying that? How many times do I have to tell you it isn't true?


phat writes:

My point is the God I market won't give you the evidence.


ringo writes:

And I'm not buyin' it.

So whats the difference between refusing the God I market and not buying it?

You refuse to believe without evidence. True or False?

Perhaps it is only my marketing that you are refusing. You are waiting to see the product before you believe it. New Cats Eye has not seen the product but has seen the results. Are you going to demand that he be monitored 24/7 so that we can all have objective audio proof or are you simply going to accept his anecdotal testimony?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by ringo, posted 06-27-2017 1:32 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by ringo, posted 06-28-2017 3:14 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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