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Author Topic:   The Trump Presidency
Taq
Member
Posts: 7557
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 2416 of 2500 (838193)
08-15-2018 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 2415 by NoNukes
08-15-2018 1:58 PM


Re: The Omarosa Thing
NoNukes writes:

You are describing the state of things while you are on the job. Yes, you would be fired for disparaging your boss at that point. But these agreements purport to do much more than that, and extend, apparently forever.

I think those types of NDA's are legal in the private sector, but definitely not enforceable in the public sector (i.e. government workers). Omarosa worked for the US government during that time, so there is no way that is binding past her employment.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2415 by NoNukes, posted 08-15-2018 1:58 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2417 by NoNukes, posted 08-15-2018 5:42 PM Taq has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 2417 of 2500 (838194)
08-15-2018 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 2416 by Taq
08-15-2018 4:20 PM


Re: The Omarosa Thing
I think those types of NDA's are legal in the private sector, but definitely not enforceable in the public sector (i.e. government workers).

I don't think there is any distinction. An NDA would not prevent you from speaking about something illegal or from responding to a court order in any circumstance, but in circumstances where they are enforceable in the private sector, they are likely enforceable (using monetary penalties) in the public sector.

But NDAs that prevent you from speaking out well after employment are not common employment practice in the public sector. I agree that they are more common in some particular business sectors than others.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2416 by Taq, posted 08-15-2018 4:20 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2418 by Taq, posted 08-15-2018 5:54 PM NoNukes has responded
 Message 2419 by Percy, posted 08-15-2018 7:10 PM NoNukes has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7557
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 2418 of 2500 (838195)
08-15-2018 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 2417 by NoNukes
08-15-2018 5:42 PM


Re: The Omarosa Thing
NoNukes writes:

I don't think there is any distinction. An NDA would not prevent you from speaking about something illegal or from responding to a court order in any circumstance, but in circumstances where they are enforceable in the private sector, they are likely enforceable (using monetary penalties) in the public sector.

But NDAs that prevent you from speaking out well after employment are not common employment practice in the public sector. I agree that they are more common in some particular business sectors than others.

From my brief reading on the matter, there seems to be different rules for "trade secrets" and "normal confidential information". It can be legal to enforce a lifetime non-disclosure agreement on something like the formula for Coca-Cola, but you can't enforce an NDA lasting a lifetime on something like the CEO of Coca-Cola cheating on his wife. However, there can be a time limted NDA on normal confidential information, if I am reading things correctly.

There are also many cases backing the 1st amendment rights of former government employees which means former government employees can share normal confidential information. Obviously, this doesn't apply to classified information which would be equivalent to trade secrets in the private sector.

S

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2417 by NoNukes, posted 08-15-2018 5:42 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2420 by NoNukes, posted 08-15-2018 8:05 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17657
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 2419 of 2500 (838197)
08-15-2018 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 2417 by NoNukes
08-15-2018 5:42 PM


Re: The Omarosa Thing
NoNukes writes:

But NDAs that prevent you from speaking out well after employment are not common employment practice in the public sector.

My hope would be that the practice would be unheard of in the public sector. There's been a lot written in the press recently expressing doubt about their enforceability, e.g., Mark Zaid: 'Any NDA that extends beyond classified information would be unconstitutional.'.

It would also be my hope that any "no badmouthing in perpetuity" clause would be unconstitutional on 1st Amendment grounds no matter the sector. It shouldn't be possible to coerce lying (either explicit or by silence) through the promise of employment, which would be the case were all employers to begin using such NDAs. (And though not the topic I'll add that I don't believe the flood of mandatory binding arbitration agreements is right, either, such as in product warranties, credit card agreements, health treatment consent forms, and so forth.)

Refreshingly the National Review is not a Trump fan, and about this they say the NDA removes all credibility:

quote:
Again, put legalities aside. Heck, put ethics or self-respect aside. If you worked for the Trump administration and signed one of these things, why should anyone believe anything you say about it? More specifically, why should TV shows or op-ed pages invite you — or pay you — to share your views without disclosing the fact you’ve vowed, in writing, that you will never, ever, for all eternity criticize this administration?

Look, I get that many flacks and hacks don’t need the threat of a million-dollar lawsuit to carry water for their former boss or party. But there’s a difference between being a loyal party guy or gal, and actually entering into a binding legal agreement that says you cannot tell the truth if the truth is embarrassing to Donald Trump and the extended Trump Universe.

At minimum, I think any Trump White House alum who has a contract with a news network or academic institution, should disclose whether they signed a NDA with a non-disparagement clause in it (or any of its associated PACs). They should produce the actual document for public review. They should also openly declare whether they consider it binding. Their answer, yes or no, should be noted at the end of any op-ed they write and mentioned by any interviewer asking them to share their opinion or analysis.

Lots of people in politics and journalism don’t tell the truth (you could look it up). But these people put it in writing, and there should be consequences for that. And if consequences are just another one of the nice things we can’t have anymore, we should at least get some transparency.


Along these lines, I recently commented that the NDA explained the fawning Sean Spicer book.

I don't know why the news media so often gives serious consideration to anything said by the Trump administration until disproven by hard evidence. Compare politicians and scientists. Maybe I'm biased, but I strongly believe that in general scientists have a great deal more integrity than politicians, yet the tobacco industry had no problem getting scientists to shill about the safety of cigarettes. Therefore scumbag politicians like Trump have an even easier time getting their entire administration (and half of Congress) to shill for them, and the news media should assume they're lying until they prove they're telling the truth. The evidence thus far says they'd be right far more often than wrong.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2417 by NoNukes, posted 08-15-2018 5:42 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2421 by NoNukes, posted 08-15-2018 8:08 PM Percy has responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 2420 of 2500 (838199)
08-15-2018 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 2418 by Taq
08-15-2018 5:54 PM


Re: The Omarosa Thing
From my brief reading on the matter, there seems to be different rules for "trade secrets" and "normal confidential information".

You read correctly. Trade secret protection is forever. But, for example only, using the "N" word is not a trade secret.

There are also many cases backing the 1st amendment rights of former government employees which means former government employees can share normal confidential information.

Yes, but those same concerns apply in the private sector. There may be more "newsworthy" stuff in the public sector, but the first amendment would be based on the subject matter and not the fact that the government is involved. NDAs are a contractural matter and you can agree to be silent for money.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2418 by Taq, posted 08-15-2018 5:54 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 2421 of 2500 (838200)
08-15-2018 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 2419 by Percy
08-15-2018 7:10 PM


Re: The Omarosa Thing
My hope would be that the practice would be unheard of in the public sector. There's been a lot written in the press recently expressing doubt about their enforceability, e.g., Mark Zaid: 'Any NDA that extends beyond classified information would be unconstitutional.'.

At this point, you are wishing. We knew that Trump was making volunteers sign NDAs even during his campaign.

As for the idea that an NDA extends beyond classified information being unconstitutional, that's simply bad legal advice. Perhaps there was some context to Zaid's remarks that makes then something other than wishful thinking.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2419 by Percy, posted 08-15-2018 7:10 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2422 by Percy, posted 08-15-2018 9:14 PM NoNukes has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17657
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 2422 of 2500 (838203)
08-15-2018 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 2421 by NoNukes
08-15-2018 8:08 PM


Re: The Omarosa Thing
NoNukes writes:

My hope would be that the practice would be unheard of in the public sector. There's been a lot written in the press recently expressing doubt about their enforceability, e.g., Mark Zaid: 'Any NDA that extends beyond classified information would be unconstitutional.'.

At this point, you are wishing. We knew that Trump was making volunteers sign NDAs even during his campaign.

Not counting Trump - we already know he's a scumbag using NDAs to prevent knowledge of his illegal and/or immoral actions from becoming public.

I wasn't thinking of political campaigns as part of the public sector, and Wikipedia's article about the public sector doesn't mention them, but maybe they are. I don't know. If they are then according to numerous experts both the campaign and the White House NDAs are likely unenforceable, see further below.

As for the idea that an NDA extends beyond classified information being unconstitutional, that's simply bad legal advice. Perhaps there was some context to Zaid's remarks that makes then something other than wishful thinking.

Are you referring to Zaid's remark in the headline or to his comments in the article? You didn't quote anything, so I can't tell what you're referring to. Here's the link to the article again: Mark Zaid: 'Any NDA that extends beyond classified information would be unconstitutional.'. If it helps here's some of what he said in the article:

quote:
It's entirely inappropriate & likely unconstitutional to require Fed employees to sign NDA that applies post-employment beyond classified info. We'll rep anyone who has signed & wishes to challenge such agreement pro bono.
...
The courts have been clear that any NDA that extends beyond classified information would be unconstitutional as an infringement of free speech.

From White House spokesman: I've never seen an NDA in Trump White House:

quote:
Government watchdogs have argued that the documents are unenforceable and uncommon for public employees.

From Are The White House's NDAs Enforceable? Maybe Not:

quote:
On Aug. 14, the Trump campaign filed an arbitration case against Manigault alleging that she violated a confidentiality agreement that she had signed in 2016. But despite the lawsuit, Manigault might not have a lot to worry about, given that experts are saying that the NDA might not be enforceable.

I'll stop there. I'm not trying to make legal arguments, just trying to point out that Zaid isn't a lone voice in the night - there are other legal voices that agree with him.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2421 by NoNukes, posted 08-15-2018 8:08 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2423 by Percy, posted 08-16-2018 9:27 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 2429 by NoNukes, posted 08-18-2018 6:34 PM Percy has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17657
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 2423 of 2500 (838250)
08-16-2018 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 2422 by Percy
08-15-2018 9:14 PM


Re: The Omarosa Thing
We've all heard of the Nixon tapes. Well now there's the Omarosa tapes, and as Donald Jr. would say, "I love it!" The score is currently Omarosa 3, Trump administration 0. Here are the details:

  • Omarosa's account of her firing by John Kelly: the Trump administration said it didn't happen that way, Omarosa produced a tape.
  • Omarosa's account of Trump expressing no prior knowledge of her firing: the Trump administration said it didn't happen that way, Omarosa produced a tape.
  • Omarosa said she was offered a do nothing job to keep quier: the Trump administration said it didn't happen that way, Omarosa produced a tape.

Why is the media investing Omarosa with so little credibility? Omarosa was on one of the Sunday morning political interview programs facing a panel of liberal interviewers (and one conservative) who all challenged her credibility but asked her virtually not a single question about any of the information in her book that had already been made public prior to the Tuesday release.

I never watched the Apprentice and I had no awareness of Omarosa before the 2016 campaign began, and very little awareness of her after. My impression from what little I saw was that she was a verbally aggressive, combative and overly dramatic Trump supporter, but unlike Kellyanne Conway she never struck me as a liar. Am I wrong about that?

I don't know what all else is in Omarosa's book, but if I were the media I'd start paying closer attention.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2422 by Percy, posted 08-15-2018 9:14 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17657
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 2424 of 2500 (838254)
08-17-2018 7:34 AM


A Little Trump Humor from James Corden
James Corden is the Late Late Show host, and this video of his opening monologue is very fun, especially the second half:

--Percy


    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17657
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 2425 of 2500 (838260)
08-17-2018 9:56 AM


Friends of a Feather Stick Together
Some might remember President Trump's recent pardon of Dinesh D'Souza for his 2014 conviction for making an illegal campaign contribution. D'Souza is a conservative commentator, writer and filmmaker. He has a new film titled Death of a Nation. Here's the trailer, just so people can get a clear idea of the kind of people Trump is friends with:

It's been in theaters since August 3rd. It's not in too many theaters, though. The closest to me is over an hour away.

Sort of reminds me of Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed.

--Percy


    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17657
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 2426 of 2500 (838296)
08-18-2018 12:40 PM


Michael Avenatti is Coming to New Hampshire
Tomorrow Michael Avenatti will be speaking at the Hillsborough County Democratic Summer Picnic in Greenfield, NH. I have a ticket and am thinking of going.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 2427 by NosyNed, posted 08-18-2018 1:50 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 2435 by Percy, posted 08-19-2018 4:46 PM Percy has responded

    
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8810
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 2427 of 2500 (838302)
08-18-2018 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 2426 by Percy
08-18-2018 12:40 PM


Opinions of Avenattie
It may be that your high opinion of Avenatti is shared by Fox news. .

I saw a bit (as much of them as I can stomach) where they were repeatedly referring to him as CPL (creepy porn lawyer). They didn't actually have much to say but it seems they might be afraid that you are right about him.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2426 by Percy, posted 08-18-2018 12:40 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6505
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 2428 of 2500 (838306)
08-18-2018 3:54 PM


Courts rule that Trump is not a dictator
It turns out that the US President is not a dictator, which is sure to disappoint conservatives everywhere.

From the Guardian:

Blow for EPA as court blocks bid to slacken safety rules for chemical plants

Nothing specific I want to quote here, just a list of a few of the attempts by Trump's EPA to allow the chemical industry to poison, sicken, or otherwise endanger the health and safety of Americans that have been blocked by the courts.

I'm sure that the EPA has the authority to do at least some of these things, but, wouldn't you know, there are actually rules and procedures that need to be followed. You iknow, that "rule of law" thingy that was so important to the Founders of this nations.


Oh, God! Pride of Man, broken in the dust again! -- Quicksilver Messenger Service

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 2429 of 2500 (838310)
08-18-2018 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 2422 by Percy
08-15-2018 9:14 PM


Re: The Omarosa Thing
re you referring to Zaid's remark in the headline or to his comments in the article? You didn't quote anything, so I can't tell what you're referring to.

I did not quote anything because you did not quote anything other than his conclusion. The idea that an NDA is only constitutional when applied to national security is ridiculous.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2422 by Percy, posted 08-15-2018 9:14 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2431 by Percy, posted 08-19-2018 8:35 AM NoNukes has responded

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3664
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 2430 of 2500 (838314)
08-19-2018 2:35 AM


Brennan On Revoked Clearance
Video available via https://talkingpointsmemo.com/...ore-important-than-mr-trump

The above also links to an interview transcript:
Rachel Maddow interviews John Brennan: Read the full transcript

Moose

Added by edit:

Side note from http://www.msnbc.com/...ubles-reportedly-come-constant-basis

quote:
Politico published a rather unflattering piece yesterday on Donald Trump’s “diplomatic learning curve,” which has apparently proven challenging for the amateur president. The article noted one instance, for example, in which Trump studied a briefer’s map of South Asia and “mispronounced Nepal as ‘nipple’ and laughingly referred to Bhutan as ‘button.’”

Noting the similarities between this and a scene from “The Simpsons,” Jon Chait noted, “It’s like having Homer Simpson as president, but dumber.”


The little linked video:

“It’s like having Homer Simpson as president, but dumber.”

Edited by Minnemooseus, : Added by edit.


Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.

"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien

"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose


    
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