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Author Topic:   "Natural" (plant-based) Health Solutions
jar
Member
Posts: 29438
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 211 of 249 (821516)
10-08-2017 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by Granny Magda
10-08-2017 5:53 PM


Re: Truth About Cancer Conference is over
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it is very likely not a doctor.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Granny Magda, posted 10-08-2017 5:53 PM Granny Magda has acknowledged this reply

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granpa
Member
Posts: 120
Joined: 10-26-2010


Message 212 of 249 (821517)
10-08-2017 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by jar
10-08-2017 7:01 PM


Re: Truth About Cancer Conference is over
Empiric = quack doctor

empiric (adj.)
c. 1600, empirical, from Latin empiricus (n.) "a physician guided by experience," from Greek empeirikos "experienced," from empeiria "experience; mere experience or practice without knowledge," especially in medicine, from empeiros "experienced (in a thing), proven by use," from assimilated form of en "in" (see en- (2)) + peira "trial, experiment," from PIE *per-ya-, suffixed form of root *per- (3) "to try, risk" (see peril (n.)).

Originally a school of ancient physicians who based their practice on experience rather than theory. Earlier as a noun (1540s) in reference to the sect, and earliest (1520s) in a sense "quack doctor" which was in frequent use 16c.-19c.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=Empirical;


Why BELIEVE that it will rain today when you can KNOW that it might rain today. Belief is unnecessary and illogical.

A moral person is a person that understands that the universe does not revolve around their ego.

A civilized society is a society whose laws do not revolve around any one person or group of people.
The more a society treats everyone as equals the more civilized it is.


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 Message 211 by jar, posted 10-08-2017 7:01 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26448
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 213 of 249 (821520)
10-08-2017 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by Granny Magda
10-08-2017 5:53 PM


Re: Truth About Cancer Conference is over
The reason why doctors typically don't study deeply into nutrition is largely because they don't need to; they have dietitians for that....

In other words diet never becomes a factor in the diagnosis and treatment of a patient's condition, it's completely separate. The nutritionist doesn't get to see the patient to consider if vitamin C might help with the sores in the mouth so if the doctor doesn't know about vitamin C the patient has to continue to suffer from the sores in the mouth.

Well, of course I'm just a loony here as usual, but I found many of the presentations valuable, and after getting all this debunkery I think it's unconscionable that the medical profession with its chemo and radiation and no consideration at all of nutritional treatments has all the authority in the area and the power to keep other systems marginalized. For one thing this inhibits the very testing that would be helpful in the area of nutrition therapy. There are nevertheless studies and many were quoted during the conference. But I'd like to know more about the ketogenic diet versus high carb diets for instance, and comparisons of the different approaches in other ways. None of these people struck me as irresponsible quacks, the accusation of quackery seems to come from a prejudiced opposition rather than a fair consideration of the work involved.

Organic produce against pesticides in our food. Seems reasonable to me. Studies of the effect of carrots have been done, some even mentioned earlier in the thread, but otherwise a study of "Alternative Medicine" just jumbles it all together so you can't find out anything about what particular treatments make a difference.

G Edward Griffin has done a lot of work exposing the influence of the foundations on various aspects of American life, so I didn't find anything new in the claim that they also influenced the direction the medical profession took in emphasizing drug therapies. He describes medicine before the beginning of the twentieth century as an unregulated field of lots of different kinds of treatment systems. It sounds like it did need some regulation, but the regulation it got under the influence of the foundations favored drugs instead of the use of natural remedies, and apparently got everybody convinced this is because they work rather than that vested interests could be behind them. Griffin exposes real conspiracies and he's produced the evidence many times. Even conspiracies to conduct faked research to validate the pet theory of the day. So he said in his talk at the conference that there were studies that validated amygdalin as a treatment for cancer, but that they weren't accepted by the medical profession, and a way was found to set up an experiment to prove what they wanted to prove. That's not impossible and I have no reason to doubt it myself. Also there's this weird idea that people defend cures like amygdalin for some reason other than that they've seen it work. I have no idea myself but what if Griffin is right and research has been faked against it while validating research has been buried.

Anyway my sympathies are with the natural treatments against the drugs and the poisons of chemo and radiation. I'm sure doctors sincerely believe they are doing the right thing but I hope more people find out about the alternatives because I'm convinced they actually can cure diseases that standard treatment can't. And most of the presenters at this conference were asking only for trying it when there is time to try it, so that anyone can go back to the conventional treatment at any time. Also megadoses of nutrition can help with the side effects of the standard treatments.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Granny Magda, posted 10-08-2017 5:53 PM Granny Magda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Granny Magda, posted 10-09-2017 8:08 AM Faith has responded

    
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2338
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 3.3


(3)
Message 214 of 249 (821537)
10-09-2017 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by Faith
10-08-2017 8:33 PM


Re: Truth About Cancer Conference is over
Well, of course I'm just a loony here as usual, but I found many of the presentations valuable, and after getting all this debunkery I think it's unconscionable that the medical profession with its chemo and radiation and no consideration at all of nutritional treatments has all the authority in the area and the power to keep other systems marginalized.

It's not up to doctors to test every insane notion that runs through a crackpot's head. They don't necessarily have the resources for that and in any case, many alt-med interventions are so loony that they don't even pass the prior plausibility test.

The alt-med industry on the other hand is rolling in cash. Estimates online value the industry at 30 to 200 billion dollars. If they want to test their nonsense, they can. But they rarely do. Worse, when something is debunked, they just carry on with it as though nothing had happened.

There are nevertheless studies and many were quoted during the conference.

Bring them. Don't just mention them offhand. If you have evidence, bring it. Otherwise no-one is impressed.

Alt-med studies are typically poorly designed and amount to little more than quacks cosplaying as real doctors.

None of these people struck me as irresponsible quacks, the accusation of quackery seems to come from a prejudiced opposition rather than a fair consideration of the work involved.

I call them quacks because that's what they are.

Have you forgotten that Ty Bolinger, the person behind "Truth About Cancer" is responsible for various grotesque lies, or did you fail to read that as well? As a reminder, this is the guy who said that 97% of people on chemo are dead within five years. Do you believe that? Or is it a disgusting and irresponsible lie that will discourage sick people from taking life-saving medication?

G Edward Griffin...

... is a total loon. He's an HIV?AIDS denialist and a 9/11 "truther". He is nothing but a conspiracy theorist.

Also there's this weird idea that people defend cures like amygdalin for some reason other than that they've seen it work.

Amygdalin doen't work. It was tested extensively when it first came to light and found to be worthless. This is an excellent example of alt-med quacks refusing to abandon failed treatments.

The reason why so many people become convinced that quack cures are in fact working is mostly because they don't know what they are doing. The testimonies of non-experts aren't especially reliable. Might as well say that magic is real because some people say that they've seen it work. Once again, anecdote is no substitute for data.

Also, don't forget, many of the ringleaders in the alt-med world are simply liars. Ty Bolinger, as we have seen, is a liar. His word is not trustworthy.

And most of the presenters at this conference were asking only for trying it when there is time to try it, so that anyone can go back to the conventional treatment at any time.

Excpet that's not true.

Bolinger tries to convince people that chemo and radiotherapy are going to kill them. That's not presenting a choice, that's fear-mongering for profit. It's a despicable lie, designed to drive sick people to buy snake oil. For instance, from Bollinger's own website;

quote:
Did you know that the overall success rate for most cancers treated with the chemotherapy is a paltry 3%?

I did not know that. I didn't know it because it's complete horse shit. That's easily checkable and it's completely untrue. That's the sort of filthy lie you get from scam artists like Bollinger. How exactly are you going to get useful information from someone who lies so freely and so crudely?

Or are you going to defend that rubbish? Tell me, do you think he's right about that? Or is it nonsense? Or are you just going to continue to ignore it?

Mutate and Survive


On two occasions I have been asked, "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Faith, posted 10-08-2017 8:33 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by Faith, posted 10-09-2017 8:40 AM Granny Magda has responded
 Message 232 by ProtoTypical, posted 10-10-2017 8:42 AM Granny Magda has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26448
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 215 of 249 (821538)
10-09-2017 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Granny Magda
10-09-2017 8:08 AM


Re: Truth About Cancer Conference is over
I didn't take notes at the conference; now I wish I had. I mostly wanted to get an overview of this field I've known nothing about.

You say Bollinger lied about this or that. He didn't speak at the conference and I haven't heard any lies so I can't respond. I'm not in a position to judge what he said about chemo. You say it's bollocks. I don't know. I didn't hear it at the conference.

I'm just tired of the attitude here, this smearing of anybody who doesn't toe the status quo line.

I've seen some interviews by Griffin that are quite compelling. Sorry you don't think so.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Granny Magda, posted 10-09-2017 8:08 AM Granny Magda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by jar, posted 10-09-2017 8:47 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 217 by Granny Magda, posted 10-09-2017 9:00 AM Faith has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29438
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 216 of 249 (821540)
10-09-2017 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by Faith
10-09-2017 8:40 AM


Re: Truth About Cancer Conference is over
Faith writes:

I'm just tired of the attitude here, this smearing of anybody who doesn't toe the status quo line.

Except of course Faith, that simply hasn't happened. Pointing out reality and dishonesty and carny cons is not smearing anybody.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Faith, posted 10-09-2017 8:40 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2338
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 217 of 249 (821542)
10-09-2017 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by Faith
10-09-2017 8:40 AM


Re: Truth About Cancer Conference is over
I didn't take notes at the conference; now I wish I had.

Yeah, they're relying on that. They casually mention some study, they don't provide any detail, then they move on, leaving you with the impression that they did something sciencey. It's a con job, a conjuring trick.

You say Bollinger lied about this or that. He didn't speak at the conference and I haven't heard any lies so I can't respond.

It's Ty Bollinger's conference, he's the owner, the ringleader in this particular circus. He bears overall responsibility for it.

Anyway, you have seen his lies. I showed you one in the last message. He asks "Did you know that the overall success rate for most cancers treated with the chemotherapy is a paltry 3%?". It's right here. And it's simply untrue. In fact, it's pretty much the opposite of the truth.

You need to respond to this. Why is it acceptable for Bollinger to bear false witness like this?

I'm just tired of the attitude here, this smearing of anybody who doesn't toe the status quo line.

But it's okay for you to portray those who disagree with you as prejudiced and closed minded?

I don't call Bollinger a liar because he doesn't toe the party line, I call him a liar because he tells easily disproved lies. For money. At the expense of the gullible and the desperate.

I've seen some interviews by Griffin that are quite compelling. Sorry you don't think so.

Medical science and public healthcare do not rely upon whether or not someone can make a compelling Youtube video. They rely upon carefully gathered evidence. If Griffin has evidence that - for instance - HIV does not cause AIDS, a favourite insane claim of his, let him bring it. Until that time I will continue to call him a crank.

Mutate and Survive


On two occasions I have been asked, "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Faith, posted 10-09-2017 8:40 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by Faith, posted 10-09-2017 10:44 AM Granny Magda has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26448
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 218 of 249 (821549)
10-09-2017 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by Granny Magda
10-09-2017 9:00 AM


Re: Truth About Cancer Conference is over
Beggin yur pahdin but I don't trust what you told me, perhaps it's out of context, perhaps he's since changed his mind, I don't know, but I don't trust anything you tell me at this point. Sawry. I'm taking sides against you, sawry. I also don't care if someone misspeaks once in a while, it doesn't damn a whole movement as you seem to desire. I will discover eventually where the truth lies and I really don't need your help for that. This conference raised lots of issues I want to think about and your eagerness to blast the whole thing with personal accusations is repugnant to me.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Granny Magda, posted 10-09-2017 9:00 AM Granny Magda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by Granny Magda, posted 10-09-2017 12:08 PM Faith has responded

    
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2338
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 3.3


(2)
Message 219 of 249 (821561)
10-09-2017 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Faith
10-09-2017 10:44 AM


Re: Truth About Cancer Conference is over
Beggin yur pahdin but I don't trust what you told me,

Cue the temper tantrum.

You don't have to trust me, you can look for yourself. The lie is right there on Bollinger's own site. Look for yourself.

perhaps it's out of context,

It's not out of context. Bollinger claims that 97% of chemo patients die within five years. What context is there where that is in any way true?

perhaps he's since changed his mind,

It's right there on his current website and in the videos he still promotes. He has not changed his mind. You are clutching at straws.

I don't know, but I don't trust anything you tell me at this point. Sawry. I'm taking sides against you, sawry.

I thought you were against smear tactics? To me, this translates as "La-la-la, I'm not listening". How childish.

This is a debate forum. If you want to post your opinions unchallenged, put them on your blog.

I also don't care if someone misspeaks once in a while,

You don't care if people lie to cancer patients. You don't care that people lie to scare cancer patients into rejecting life-saving medicine. Got it.

This conference raised lots of issues I want to think about and your eagerness to blast the whole thing with personal accusations is repugnant to me.

What I find repugnant is lying to cancer patients in a way that could cost them their lives. Apparently you care so little about that possibility that you won't even address the issue, resorting instead to childish antics. A shame.

Again, I would suggest that you take a look at Bollinger's crappy website. You will find the "97%" claim right there in black and white. Even a casual analysis of this claim reveals it as a moronic lie. Why are you content to treat liars as reputable sources?

Mutate and Survive


On two occasions I have been asked, "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Faith, posted 10-09-2017 10:44 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by Faith, posted 10-09-2017 5:16 PM Granny Magda has acknowledged this reply

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26448
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 220 of 249 (821589)
10-09-2017 5:13 PM


the fungus guy
I looked at Bollinger's site and failed to find the statistic you are talking about.

But I came back to comment on the fungus guy. I looked him up too and at first glance his idea does look pretty wacky. But a review of his book suggested that the idea of baking soda simply agrees with the general understanding that cancer requires an acidic body environment to grow and that whatever you can do to make it slightly alkaline will discourage the growth of cancer. I don't know if this is something only the "alt-med" people say or it's common knowledge, but it was said a lot by many at the conference. But someone also pointed out that it depends on where the cancer is located whether baking soda can even reach it.

Also I don't get the connection with candida yet.

But I've had an interesting personal experience recently I'd like to report. I've been sort of trying the high starch diet I recently learned about, not really following their protocol but making potatoes my main food followed by salad and carrot juice, though I deviate into other things that are off the diet too so I can't say I'm really following it. For one thing fat is not allowed and I really can't eat potatoes or salad without olive oil at least.

Anyway, I started noticing after a few days that I no longer had the candida rash I sometimes get on my abdomen these days (due to slightly high blood sugar that isn't quite Type 2 diabetes yet and I hope won't ever be). I usually use Nystatin to cure it, but maybe potatoes will do it? '

Potatoes are an alkaline forming food, and so are most vegetables so salad would also be alkaline. And one other thing, when I deviated into eating an egg salad sandwich on pita bread I got ferocious acid reflux, which I'm also prone to and for some reason I felt like eating a carrot, because I had this feeling it would help, and guess what, the acid totally disappeared. Oh I also had coffee which I'm trying to stop or at least cut back on, and that is a strong acid-former, or maybe it's the cream in it, or both? More experimenting needed.

Anecdote anecdote but I've never had this happen before and although it isn't a peer-reviewed study I'm likely to repeat the experiment and see if it holds up.

Alkaline potatoes, alkaline carrots, candida goes away, acid reflux goes away. If there is a connection between candida and cancer and alkalinity discourages candida and I can get rid of acid reflux by eating a raw carrot, I can see why someone might connect these conditions. Even if he's wrong in some important way I have the impression there is logic to his thinking.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by Faith, posted 10-09-2017 7:06 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 233 by Granny Magda, posted 10-11-2017 3:19 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26448
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 221 of 249 (821591)
10-09-2017 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by Granny Magda
10-09-2017 12:08 PM


Re: Truth About Cancer Conference is over
I don't see that anybody is lying to cancer patients. I don't even see anyone discouraging conventional treatment, though there may be some that go overboard that I've missed. Most are just suggesting that "overdosing on nutrition" be tried when there is still time for it to see if it works before going ahead with the chemo or whatever, and some of the testimonials include both standard treatment and nutritional treatments.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Granny Magda, posted 10-09-2017 12:08 PM Granny Magda has acknowledged this reply

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26448
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 222 of 249 (821601)
10-09-2017 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Faith
10-09-2017 5:13 PM


Re: the fungus guy
Simoncini's baking soda treatment for cancer has caused the death of at least a couple of women. He injects the baking soda directly into the tumor. In one case the woman died of alkalosis, too much alkalinity. The other died of cardiac arrest.

Obviously he was doing something very wrong, in one case overdosing the patient with baking soda and I'm not sure in the other case.

I'm not sure why with his record people would still trust him, but apart from his practice there seems to be good reason to aim for higher body alkalinity, though this is usually understood to be just a small degree of alkalinity, and even reducing the acidity without arriving at actual alkalinity is supposed to make a difference. Even a diet of mostly vegetables could accomplish that, and in case after case people following such a diet report shrinkage of tumors on scans after months, even in some cases weeks, on such a diet. There's no need for heavy doses of baking soda in any form, whether taken orally or injected.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Faith, posted 10-09-2017 5:13 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-09-2017 9:07 PM Faith has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11761
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 223 of 249 (821610)
10-09-2017 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by Faith
10-09-2017 7:06 PM


Re: the fungus guy
there seems to be good reason to aim for higher body alkalinity

So, your body is made of tissues. Those are made of proteins. Proteins are made of amino acids.

You are literally made of acids. If your body became alkaline you would die - from the acids you are made of turning into salts.

Your stomach is full of really strong acid. Any alkaline food you eat will be immediately neutralized and no longer be alkaline - you can't make your body more alkaline, in general, and you cannot make it more alkaline with food or water.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Faith, posted 10-09-2017 7:06 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by granpa, posted 10-09-2017 9:36 PM New Cat's Eye has responded
 Message 231 by Faith, posted 10-10-2017 7:33 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
granpa
Member
Posts: 120
Joined: 10-26-2010


Message 224 of 249 (821618)
10-09-2017 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by New Cat's Eye
10-09-2017 9:07 PM


Re: the fungus guy
amino = NH3 = base
acid = COOH = acid
This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-09-2017 9:07 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-09-2017 9:42 PM granpa has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11761
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 225 of 249 (821621)
10-09-2017 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by granpa
10-09-2017 9:36 PM


Re: the fungus guy
you = not making sense
me = not caring
This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by granpa, posted 10-09-2017 9:36 PM granpa has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by granpa, posted 10-09-2017 9:46 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
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