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Author Topic:   Genesis "kinds" may be Nested Hierarchies.
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1856
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 136 of 184 (824535)
11-30-2017 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by Dredge
11-30-2017 4:24 AM


Nebraska man, really?
Dredge writes:

My point is, not only was Nebraska Man fabricated on the basis of one tooth...

Actually, the tooth wasn't fabricated. So, what's your point?
This message is a reply to:
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jar
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Posts: 29763
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 137 of 184 (824537)
11-30-2017 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by Pressie
11-30-2017 7:44 AM


Re: Nebraska man, really?
And it was not the Christian Cult of Ignorance that determined that it was not a primate but rather Science.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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dwise1
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Posts: 3028
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 138 of 184 (824545)
11-30-2017 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by jar
11-30-2017 8:20 AM


Re: Nebraska man, really?
In comparison, countless creationist claims and hoaxes that were literally refuted completely several decades ago are still being taught as Gospel to new converts.

Science wants to get at the truth, so it tests its results and corrects the inevitable mistakes as quickly as possible.

Creationism just wants to deceive everybody into converting to its own false theology, so it tests nothing and retains its mistakes and hoaxes for eternity.

That tells us everything we need to know about creationism and its associated religion.


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Taq
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Posts: 7277
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 139 of 184 (824555)
11-30-2017 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Dredge
11-26-2017 6:49 AM


Re: platypus nested hierarchy
Dredge writes:

The rationale for arranging them in that order is to make it look like the general theory of evolution is true - as is the wont of atheist "scientists".

So you admit that fossils look transitional?


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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ringo
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Posts: 13968
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(2)
Message 140 of 184 (824556)
11-30-2017 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by Dredge
11-30-2017 4:24 AM


Re: platypus nested hierarchy
Dredge writes:

My point is, not only was Nebraska Man fabricated on the basis of one tooth, that tooth was very weathered and thus hard to identify. Junk science built on junk evidence, in other words.


Nebraska Man and Piltdown Man were disproven by the same science that you reject. You're scoffing at the science in one breath and praising it in the next.
This message is a reply to:
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Coyote
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Posts: 6037
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 141 of 184 (824563)
11-30-2017 11:40 AM


Both Nebraska Man and Piltdown Man live on only in the minds of creationists.

These are the same creationists who believe if they can discredit Darwin in some way that will discredit his theory over 150 years later.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


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Dredge
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Posts: 676
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 142 of 184 (824802)
12-03-2017 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Taq
11-30-2017 11:11 AM


Re: platypus nested hierarchy
A cat fossil and a dog fossil could be imagined as transitional. Nothing to do with reality, however.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Taq, posted 11-30-2017 11:11 AM Taq has responded

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Dredge
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Posts: 676
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 143 of 184 (824803)
12-03-2017 6:49 PM


In the way of an exercise, could a flying pig be fitted into a nested hierarchy?
Replies to this message:
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Percy
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Posts: 16306
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


(2)
Message 144 of 184 (824804)
12-03-2017 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Dredge
12-03-2017 6:49 PM


Dredge writes:

In the way of an exercise, could a flying pig be fitted into a nested hierarchy?

You mean a pig with four legs but with two extra limbs growing somewhere out of its back that are wings? No. Same answer for griffins, minotaurs, dragons, cyclops, etc.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1417
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009
Member Rating: 2.4


(2)
Message 145 of 184 (824807)
12-03-2017 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Coyote
11-30-2017 11:40 AM


The best evidence for creationism
These are the same creationists who believe if they can discredit Darwin in some way that will discredit his theory over 150 years later.

"Show us your best evidence for creation and/or a young earth."

"Nebraska man and Piltdown man were hoaxes."

:blink:

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 3028
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 146 of 184 (824808)
12-03-2017 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Dredge
12-03-2017 6:49 PM


Do please explain to us how that could ever be possible.

IOW, please present us with the possible nested hierarchy.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Dredge, posted 12-03-2017 6:49 PM Dredge has not yet responded

    
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1417
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 147 of 184 (824809)
12-03-2017 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Dredge
12-03-2017 6:47 PM


Re: platypus nested hierarchy
A cat fossil and a dog fossil could be imagined as transitional.

You don't know what "transitional" means, do you?

quote:
TRANSITIONAL: marked by transition : involving, providing, or consisting of a passage, movement, or change from one state, condition, subject, place, etc., to another

quote:
TRANSITIONAL FOSSIL: a fossil that exhibits characteristics of both ancestral and derived forms

Since cats and dogs are both modern species, they cannot have characteristics of a derived form, they ARE the derived form. Of course, you could chose an actual transitional fossil and explain why that specimen does not have characteristics of both the proposed ancestral and derived forms. But you are not really able to do that are you? So you just stick to spouting irrelevant silliness.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Dredge, posted 12-03-2017 6:47 PM Dredge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1417
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 148 of 184 (824810)
12-03-2017 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Dredge
12-03-2017 6:49 PM


In the way of an exercise, could a flying pig be fitted into a nested hierarchy?

You are the one who claims that the nested hierarchy is imaginary and any animal could be forced into a nested hierarchy by ambitious scientists. So how about you tell us where you imagine a pig with four legs and wings would fit into a nested hierarchy. There should be several places where it would fit just fine if your assertion that nested hierarchies are imaginary is correct.

ABE:

Dredge writes:

In others words, any creature can be fitted into a nested hierarchy - all you need is a vivid imagination and an appetite for fake science.

Here's your chance to support your statement above. /ABE

Where would you put a flying pig in the "tree of life"?

HBD

Edited by herebedragons, : No reason given.


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Dredge, posted 12-03-2017 6:49 PM Dredge has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 149 of 184 (824813)
12-03-2017 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by herebedragons
12-03-2017 8:55 PM


transitionals
Since cats and dogs are both modern species, they cannot have characteristics of a derived form, they ARE the derived form. ...

And they will be intermediates (transitionals) to future forms.

Every individual fossil or being is intermediate between ancestor and progeny/descendant forms except those that are without progeny and the last of a population going extinct.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


(2)
Message 150 of 184 (824814)
12-03-2017 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Dredge
12-03-2017 6:47 PM


Intermediates and Transitionals
A cat fossil and a dog fossil could be imagined as transitional.

A cat fossil would have ancestors and be part of a breeding population that produced offspring.

Therefore that cat fossil would be intermediate (another term for transitional) between the ancestral population and the descendant population.

Likewise, a dog fossil would have ancestors and be part of a breeding population that produced offspring.

Therefore that dog fossil would be intermediate (another term for transitional) between the ancestral population and the descendant population.

By definition of what an intermediate is by evolution science, no imagination required.

quote:
Transitional forms

Fossils or organisms that show the intermediate states between an ancestral form and that of its descendants are referred to as transitional forms. There are numerous examples of transitional forms in the fossil record, providing an abundance of evidence for change over time.

Pakicetus (below left), is described as an early ancestor to modern whales. Although pakicetids were land mammals, it is clear that they are related to whales and dolphins based on a number of specializations of the ear, relating to hearing. The skull shown here displays nostrils at the front of the skull.

A skull of the gray whale that roams the seas today (below right) has its nostrils placed at the top of its skull. It would appear from these two specimens that the position of the nostril has changed over time and thus we would expect to see intermediate forms.


Note that the nostril placement in Aetiocetus is intermediate between the ancestral form Pakicetus and the modern gray whale an excellent example of a transitional form in the fossil record!


So here we have another teachable moment brought to you by Dredge.

Nothing to do with reality, however.

Amusing how reality keeps banging you in the shins as you stumble in the dark realm of ignorance.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Dredge, posted 12-03-2017 6:47 PM Dredge has not yet responded

  
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