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Author Topic:   Religion or Science - How do they compare?
GDR
Member
Posts: 4507
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 511 of 882 (834192)
05-31-2018 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 510 by NoNukes
05-31-2018 11:26 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
NoNukes writes:

I am not sure I understand what you mean when you distinguish between our heart and our mind here. Describing things as "heart" is not literal thinking. Our heart pumps blood, delivers oxygen and helps remove waste products from our cells. Everything we do is mind driven.

I'm using heart in the same sense it is used in the Bible. For example, here is a quote from Matthew 6:
quote:
For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

NoNukes writes:

Whatever the source of our morality, we can grow emotionally attached to following it. How is that different from morality being about our heart. How does the source matter?

It matters as far as this discussion goes about whether our sense of morality evolved from simply mindlessness or whether there is a cosmic sense of morality that has always existed as a result of pre-exiting intelligence.

The only other issue is that if we believe that there is morality beyond our own we can start to become prideful for what good guys we are as opposed to believing that we are simply reflectors of God's love for us. Pride can then evolve in lots of unpleasant ways.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 510 by NoNukes, posted 05-31-2018 11:26 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 512 by NoNukes, posted 06-01-2018 1:58 AM GDR has responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 512 of 882 (834198)
06-01-2018 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 511 by GDR
05-31-2018 11:43 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
It matters as far as this discussion goes about whether our sense of morality evolved from simply mindlessness or whether there is a cosmic sense of morality that has always existed as a result of pre-exiting intelligence.

Yes. Your claim seems to be that a sense of morality is not possible without that pre-existing intelligence. My question to you is why that sense of morality cannot grow out of a sense of duty to one's family, friends, clan or species?

I don't believe that atheists are immoral or that atheistic societies must be amoral, but your argument does not seem to leave open any possibility of a non-theistic morality. What is your best defense for your position?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 511 by GDR, posted 05-31-2018 11:43 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 513 by GDR, posted 06-01-2018 2:38 AM NoNukes has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4507
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 513 of 882 (834199)
06-01-2018 2:38 AM
Reply to: Message 512 by NoNukes
06-01-2018 1:58 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
NoNukes writes:

Yes. Your claim seems to be that a sense of morality is not possible without that pre-existing intelligence. My question to you is why that sense of morality cannot grow out of a sense of duty to one's family, friends, clan or species?

I don't believe that atheists are immoral or that atheistic societies must be amoral, but your argument does not seem to leave open any possibility of a non-theistic morality. What is your best defense for your position?

You haven't read all that I have said on this. Here is something I posted earlier in the thread.

from GDRpost 508 writes:

As Bob Dylan said “you gotta serve somebody”. Each of us have some form of moral code that we follow and our own reasons for doing so. It can extend from being completely selfish or completely unselfish. We are all somewhere between the two. It is for all of us a faith. My Christian faith leads me to believe that I should be a person who loves unselfishly and sacrificially. That does not mean that someone who believes atheism represents all that is true can’t hold those values. We just have different foundations for our beliefs. The golden rule is in the majority of world religions, (as far as Christianity is concerned it is both the NT and the OT), in one form or another. It is also something a secularist can support.

I wrote to Ringo somewhere recently that he sounded was more Christ like than what I have heard from many Christians over the years. I have also said the same thing about things that Chris Hitchens said.

I have also said that the still small voice of God speaks to everyone regardless of their religious, or lack of religious beliefs. I have also said that it is my opinion that if Jesus was telling the story of the Good Samaritan today in our western culture it would be the story of the Good Muslim.

I do maintain my belief though that all positive morality is only possible because there is a universal standard that is essentially defined as "The Golden Rule". I contend that a universal standard of morality requires a universal intelligent moral foundation.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 512 by NoNukes, posted 06-01-2018 1:58 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 514 by NoNukes, posted 06-01-2018 5:24 AM GDR has responded
 Message 515 by Tangle, posted 06-01-2018 8:57 AM GDR has responded
 Message 524 by dwise1, posted 06-01-2018 1:13 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 514 of 882 (834201)
06-01-2018 5:24 AM
Reply to: Message 513 by GDR
06-01-2018 2:38 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
The material you quoted suggests that morality is universal. What you are adding to that is your belief that it comes from a divine source, and in particular from Jesus Christ, regardless of one's belief system.

So, no argument from you. Just belief. At least that what I think you are espousing. If I've missed something, let me know.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 513 by GDR, posted 06-01-2018 2:38 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 516 by GDR, posted 06-01-2018 11:41 AM NoNukes has responded
 Message 529 by GDR, posted 06-04-2018 2:22 PM NoNukes has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6191
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 515 of 882 (834207)
06-01-2018 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 513 by GDR
06-01-2018 2:38 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
GDR writes:

I do maintain my belief though that all positive morality is only possible because there is a universal standard that is essentially defined as "The Golden Rule". I contend that a universal standard of morality requires a universal intelligent moral foundation.

We've done this over and over.

'Contending' is just another word for asserting and what you're asserting is your belief. Well fine, but we know this and it's not moving anything forward.

What we actually *know* is that man is an evolved animal. All his traits have evolved. If we accept that our emotions, like our physical bodies, have evolved - anger, fear happiness, jealousy, love etc - and that empathy - which is the source morality - also evolved (we have evidence of this), then why can't morality have evolved? Why does it need a god?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 513 by GDR, posted 06-01-2018 2:38 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 518 by GDR, posted 06-01-2018 11:51 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4507
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 516 of 882 (834211)
06-01-2018 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 514 by NoNukes
06-01-2018 5:24 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
NoNukes writes:

The material you quoted suggests that morality is universal. What you are adding to that is your belief that it comes from a divine source, and in particular from Jesus Christ, regardless of one's belief system.
So, no argument from you. Just belief. At least that what I think you are espousing. If I've missed something, let me know.

Of course it is about belief. That's all any of us have regardless of our views in answering this question. All I can do is to give the reasons I believe.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 514 by NoNukes, posted 06-01-2018 5:24 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 519 by Tangle, posted 06-01-2018 11:53 AM GDR has responded
 Message 525 by NoNukes, posted 06-01-2018 3:33 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15429
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 517 of 882 (834212)
06-01-2018 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 505 by GDR
05-31-2018 5:40 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
GDR writes:

If this world is the result of nothing but mindless particles coming together by chance with no intelligence involved at any point, then our morality is then simply what works for us,(or me).


Isn't that better than taking your morality from some alien overlord whose agenda might not be good for us at all?

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 505 by GDR, posted 05-31-2018 5:40 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 520 by GDR, posted 06-01-2018 11:57 AM ringo has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4507
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 518 of 882 (834213)
06-01-2018 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 515 by Tangle
06-01-2018 8:57 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
Tangle writes:

What we actually *know* is that man is an evolved animal. All his traits have evolved. If we accept that our emotions, like our physical bodies, have evolved - anger, fear happiness, jealousy, love etc - and that empathy - which is the source morality - also evolved (we have evidence of this), then why can't morality have evolved? Why does it need a god?

I'm not saying that it can't have evolved. Evolution is a process and I am saying that I contend or believe that the process has an intelligent root.

I'd also add that what has evolved naturally is a societal thing. I do believe that as individuals we have a personal conscience and part of that is a discernment of what is loving and what is unloving and the choices we make. We all know that if we find a wallet with money in it some will return it to their owners and some won't. That is personal and not societal. I think that our conscience is God speaking to us in that still small voice, which is not to say that we aren't also influenced by all sorts of natural memes from family, friends etc.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 515 by Tangle, posted 06-01-2018 8:57 AM Tangle has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6191
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 519 of 882 (834215)
06-01-2018 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 516 by GDR
06-01-2018 11:41 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
GDR writes:

Of course it is about belief.

For you.

That's all any of us have regardless of our views in answering this question.

That's not true GDR, those of us that don't share your beliefs accept the evidence that morality like all other human traits evolved and is still evolving naturally. You simply prefer your beliefs over the facts.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 516 by GDR, posted 06-01-2018 11:41 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 521 by GDR, posted 06-01-2018 12:02 PM Tangle has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4507
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 520 of 882 (834216)
06-01-2018 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 517 by ringo
06-01-2018 11:43 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
GDR writes:

If this world is the result of nothing but mindless particles coming together by chance with no intelligence involved at any point, then our morality is then simply what works for us,(or me).

ringo writes:

Isn't that better than taking your morality from some alien overlord whose agenda might not be good for us at all?

Sure, That assumes though that we have a common definition of what is good and not good. Our culture has evolved with a judeo-christian background and so we have a common definition of what is good. Other cultures not so much.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 517 by ringo, posted 06-01-2018 11:43 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 522 by ringo, posted 06-01-2018 12:07 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4507
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 521 of 882 (834218)
06-01-2018 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 519 by Tangle
06-01-2018 11:53 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
Tangle writes:

That's not true GDR, those of us that don't share your beliefs accept the evidence that morality like all other human traits evolved and is still evolving naturally. You simply prefer your beliefs over the facts.

What you call facts are your beliefs. I have no doubt that human traits are affected naturally. You believe that is the whole story. I believe that there is more to it than that, and even if I am wrong in saying that it still doesn't answer the question of whether or not that natural process came from a string of other natural processes back to the BB or whether there is an intelligence that is responsible..

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 519 by Tangle, posted 06-01-2018 11:53 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 523 by Tangle, posted 06-01-2018 12:20 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15429
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 522 of 882 (834219)
06-01-2018 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 520 by GDR
06-01-2018 11:57 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
GDR writes:

That assumes though that we have a common definition of what is good and not good.


Well, no. You said yourself that we have different ideas of "good" depending on what works for us. In reality, there is no absolute good that works in every situation. Why substitute an imposed "good" that might not be good for us at all?

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 520 by GDR, posted 06-01-2018 11:57 AM GDR has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6191
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 523 of 882 (834220)
06-01-2018 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 521 by GDR
06-01-2018 12:02 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
GDR writes:

What you call facts are your beliefs.

Perhaps you can say which of the facts below you think are beliefs

It's a fact that man is an evolved animal
It's a fact that man's emotions evolved like his physical body
It's a fact that empathy is the emotion that allows us to have caring feelings for other people and want to protect them from harm
It's a fact that people that have some specific forms of brain disorders lack empathy and do not share our moral vaues. We call these people psychopaths.
It's a fact that we can see the parts of the brain where empathy 'happens'. It's got nothing to do with god's 'small voice' or hearts.
It's a fact that empathy is a brain process.
It's a fact that our societies change/develop our moral values using laws and the criminal justice system to create more just and ordered societies over time.
It's a fact that when these systems break down, societies sink back into disorder.
It's a fact that there's no evidence for any god-like involvement in any of this process
It's a fact that I am not relying on any belief to create this list.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 521 by GDR, posted 06-01-2018 12:02 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3192
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 524 of 882 (834221)
06-01-2018 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 513 by GDR
06-01-2018 2:38 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
I know that I shouldn't jump into the middle of this like this. Sorry.

I wrote to Ringo somewhere recently that he sounded was more Christ like than what I have heard from many Christians over the years. I have also said the same thing about things that Chris Hitchens said.

I have been an atheist for more than half a century after having started to read the Bible and realizing that I just simply could not believe what I was reading, then half a decade later living through the "Jesus Freak" movement (the present-day fundamentalists) whose teachings I really could not believe, followed by "creation science" which is just a pack of lies supported by an incredible amount of outright dishonesty, lying, and deception, followed by the Radical Religious Right mentored by Christian Reconstructionists whose goal was to install a fundamentalist Christian theocracy (the CRs died out to be replaced by the Dominionists who are still with us). Now we have white evangelists/fundamentalists fervently kissing the ass of the AntiChrist in order to seize more secular power to further white supremacy, revealing that their religion has nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus' teachings, but rather only ever served to justify slavery and all kinds of other evils.

Truly, the best evidence and argument against Christianity are the Christians themselves. And as per their very own Matthew 7:20 Test, they prove Christianity to be a false religion. How could any sane person with even just a shread of moral sense ever begin to consider becoming a Christian? The followers have turned the very religion into an abomination.

I have also said that the still small voice of God speaks to everyone regardless of their religious, or lack of religious beliefs.

. . .

I do maintain my belief though that all positive morality is only possible because there is a universal standard that is essentially defined as "The Golden Rule".

Jesus' "Golden Rule" was a Pharisee teaching repeated in an early Star Trek episode, "Dagger of the Mind" (which introduced the Vulcan mind-meld), by the writer Shimon Wincelberg as "Shimon bar-David". You see, there was this uppity gentile going to all the yeshivoth demanding that they recite the whole of the Law (ie, the Torah, the first five books of the Old Testament to you goyim) while standing on one foot. The head rabbim of the other yeshivoth just grabbed a large stick and ran that idiot off their property. But when he pulled the same stupid stunt on the Pharisees, Rabbi Hillel replied with the Golden Rule: "Do not to others that which is displeasing to yourself. That is the whole of the Law. The rest is just explanation. Now go and live it." Frankly, after half a century, I'm shaky on the wording of that last sentence, but I have preserved its meaning.

That incident was in 20 BCE, a full half a century before Jesus' purported ministry. Clearly, the Pharisees were the "spirit of the Law" people and Christian vilification of them is unjustified.

Really? The Golden Rule? Don't you have anything original?
 
 
But ultimately, it does just all boil down to human nature. We are all people who have to live together and function together in order to make everything work out. Just a few days ago, I was on a flight from Miami to Phoenix next to a window seat populated by somebody who bore all the markings of being somebody I would despise politically. I politely let him know every time the attendants came through (though the first time I verified with him that my doing so was alright with him) and after we landed I invited him to move past me (I even had to do some inventive seat crawling -- BTW, all my own carry-on was under the seat). Why? For the common good. For "the good of the order" (a term I learned in the US Navy, but which was never explained to me).

That is the basis of morality: for the common good and for the good of the order. The rest is just explanation, including the bullshit religious explanations.

 
 
 
But I do need to repeat what I had heard Penn Jillette describe in a YouTube video which I unfortunately cannot find right now. It's actually a scenario that theists themselves have been known to pose. I am almost literally salivating at the chance to counter it.

You are a family of atheists who suffer a break-in by theists who know that you are atheists. The theist presenting this scenario goes into gory and explicit detail of how your children and wife are horrifically raped, mutilated, and killed before your eyes, all while telling you that because you are an atheist you are completely alright with every horrific act that they commit before your eyes. Then they start to carve out parts of your own body, each and every time telling you that because you are an atheist you are completely alright with each and every thoroughly and utter despicable act they commit.

Bullshit! Penn Jillette's response is that those acts are completely evil and nobody needs any stupid gods to tell them so. In other words, morality does in fact not depend on any stupid little gods, but rather as humans we know what is right and what is wrong.

Now, in my own personal fantasy of responding to this particular Christian travesty, I want to draw on the attempted rape scene in Watchmen by asking the theist presenting the scenario: "Is that what makes you hot? Is that what turns you on?" After all, he's getting all worked up while describing the break-in theists gleefully cutting off my genitals, so shouldn't I assume that that is one of his own fantasies about atheists?

I hope that you do realize that these Christians are a lot sicker than they let on.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 513 by GDR, posted 06-01-2018 2:38 AM GDR has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 525 of 882 (834237)
06-01-2018 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 516 by GDR
06-01-2018 11:41 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
Of course it is about belief. That's all any of us have regardless of our views in answering this question. All I can do is to give the reasons I believe.

Arguments of that kind are not helpful in deciding between two alternatives. I am asking for some reasoning if you have it.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 516 by GDR, posted 06-01-2018 11:41 AM GDR has not yet responded

  
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