Christianity and the End Times

PaulK,Concerning the 144,000 raptured and standing on Mt. Zion in Rev. 14:1-5 you object:

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On the contrary. They are standing on Mount Zion (verse 1) and hear a voice from Heaven.

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The SOUND heard out of heaven is the SOUND of the 144,000 SINGING. The SONG that they sing solemnly, reverently is the SOUND heard out of heaven. Because their experience is UNIQUE the song that they enjoy is UNIQUE.I am not sure why you would think that the sound heard by John coming out of heaven is something OTHER than the singing of that group of overcoming believers.That they are standing on a Heavenly Mt. Zion would not be unlike the writer of Hebrews telling the saints that they have come to Mt. Zion - the city of the living God and church of the firstborn ones in Hebrews 12:22 He doesn't mean that they have physically come to Jerusalem's Mt. Zion in the land of Israel geographically. It should mean that being given to the NEW COVENANT they have come in their hearts to the seat of government which has its source in Heaven.What is significant about the rapture of Revelation 14:1-5 is that the Bible does not describe the physical removing of their journey. Rather where their HEART has been for a long time they simply find one day their BODIES are there also.The point here is that they were living heavenly lives on earth following the Lamb where ever He goes. And as Enoch walked right away with God following his heart, these overcomers too suddenly are physically residing exactly where their hearts and minds were.This should remind us of Colossians 3:1. It is the principle I emphasize here rather than the interpretation of Col. 3:1-4Towards the end of this age a remnant of overcoming saints must be walking on the earth yet with hearts and minds upon the heavenly things - upon Christ reigning from Heaven. One day where their heart dwells, God will reward them by transporting their bodies there as well.To them Rapture should not be a great shock. They burst forth singing a unique song corresponding to their unique normal experience of living Christ while on earth.For this reason Revelation 14 does not describe them physically GOING UP. It only says they were purchased from the earth (14:3). Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

PaulK,Concerning the suggested certainty of the Son of Man being manifest to them you wrote:

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Certainly ? They appear to be the 144,000 from Revelation 7:1-8 and it isn’t at all clear what happens to them between the two chapters.

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The number used is the same. But the nature of the two groups is not the same. If one assumes that the 144,000 of the twelve tribes are exactly the 144,000 firstfruits of chapter 14 then you would have a case.But the two groups are not the same. That is how I would argue. Though I hope any argument on these details would have the effect of stirring up our love of Christ one way or another.At another time I will give my reasons for not considering these two groups identical. One seem more related to the old testament covenant and the other to the new testament. The 144,000 of the tribes of Israel are elect preserved Jews who pass through the great tribulation.The group of Firstfruits are found in heaven just prior to the major events of the great tribulation. Both on earth and in heaven God and the Lamb have a powerful testimony of a remnant of overcomers preserved by His sovereignty.I wrote above

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The Son of Man is revealed to the FIRSTFRUITS prior to the Son of Man being revealed to the HARVEST. So the phrase "on the day in which the Son of Man is revealed" (Luke 17:30) cannot be insisted to mean only ONE rapture.

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You:

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It doesn’t mean any sort of Rapture.

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And your reply -

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Whatever you believe it is a fact that the words are directed at the members of one Church - at the time the Revelation was written. It promises that some of them will be spared the hour of trial which is coming soon - when Jesus returns. Yet Jesus did not return any time soon, let alone within the lifetime of those people.

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"Soon" is largly subjective to human expectations. With God one day is as a thousand years. One thousand years is like one day. Two thousand is like two short days to God who is eternal.The fact of the matter is that when Jesus does return physically to the planet MOST human beings will think of it as TOO SOON rather than as too late. The human reaction to being confronted with the reality of the Son of God arriving is effected by our inward readiness to meet Him.IF Christ were to return this afternoon, probably most human beings on earth would long that they had had just a little more time to prepare.At any rate throughout the church age their have always been at least some who have the crown of reward already. Jesus exhorts them to be careful that what they have already arrived at they would allow no one to take away from them. You might say "What a let down! Jesus did not return in their life time as the letter implies."No matter, for the crown of their faithfulness is already theirs to enjoy. These who were actually of the church in Philadelphia who expired in centuries past will still enjoy an early resurrection and rapture with the corporate Manchild in Revelation 12 of those who overcame. They are resurrected and raptured before the thousand and two hundred and sixty days of the great tribulation begins. (Rev. 12:6) .The rapture of deceased overcoming saints is depicted in Revelation 12 as the Manchild.The rapture of the living overcoming saints in those days is depicted in Revelation 14 as the Firstfruits.Early rapture or resurrection and rapture is God's seal that both in past ages and at that present age He approves of the testimony of those who walked with Christ as to virtually being living heavenly lives while on earth. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Thankyou NoNukes.My sloppy error there.

The asking disciples of Matthew 24 have a status as Jews and a status as new covenant Christians.We should see two major sections of the End Time Prophecy of Matthew 24 - 25 1.) Matthew 24:1-31 is Christ addressing the disciples as to their status as Jewish members of the nation of Israel. 2.) Matthew 24:32-25:46 is Christ addressing the disciples as to their status as regards the new covenant church.The dividing line between verses 31 and versse 32 of Matthew 24.If this distinction is not grasped much confusion will result in trying to figure out the details of the end times and Christ's Second Coming.In the first section of Matthew 24:1-31 more literal interpretation is called for.In the second section of Matthew 24:32-25:46 more spiritual interpretation is called for. The former section relates more towards Israel as a nation. The latter section relates to the church.In 24:1-31 WINTER in verse 20 is to be taken literally. It is difficult to flee in the literal WINTER season.SABBATH too is literal in meaning. Yet SUMMER in the second section in verse 32 is to be spiritually interpreted. This SUMMER there means the soon coming of the kingdom.FIG TREE refers to the nation of Israel.
INNER CHAMBERS of verse 26 must be interpreted literally in the section pertaining to Israel. But in verse 43 in the second section THE HOUSE is to be interpreted spiritually.Therefore the section before Matthew 24:32 is full of a Jewish backround.
"holy place, (v.13) " "in Judea,(v.16)" and "sabbath" (v.20) are localized and specifically restricted references. But in the second section pertaining to the Christian church the spiritualization of terms removes these restrictions.The section pertaining to the disciples standing as Jewish Isrealites are physical in nature. But those things mentioned in the section at 24:32-25:46 are moral in nature. Ie. nations, mothers with children and children mentioned in the first part are physical or literal. Virgins, servants and house-holder, goats, sheep mentioned in chapter 25 are moral in nature. Spiritualization because of the spiritual nature of the church is prevalent in the section from 24:32-25:46."Go ... forth" in the first section is literal while "went forth" in the second section is more moral and spiritual in character.Only physical fleeing is required in the first section with no moral requirement.
But watching, readiness are moral actions and responsibilities of the church.For length's sake I conclude here this post. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Important summary of previous post:

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1.) Matthew 24:1-31 is Christ addressing the disciples as to their status as Jewish members of the nation of Israel.

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2.) Matthew 24:32-25:46 is Christ addressing the disciples as to their status as regards the new covenant church.

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In trying to figure out the details of His Second Coming this dividing line should be adhered to. Otherwise much confusion will result.

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You claimed that The Son of Man being revealed only meant that a few people would be Raptured and he would be revealed to them. However there is no mention of anyone being Raptured, nor any suggestion that the Revelation would be restricted to a very few (who already believed anyway).

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That is not exactly what I said. But I think my point was that the phrase "on the day when the Son of Man is revealed" should be some rationale to insist that there could only be one rapture or that there is no rapture. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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Since they are standing on Mount Zion and only one voice is heard from Heaven that seems unlikely.

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A voice from Heaven sings the song and they join in.

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I didn't say that there is literally only ONE VOICE heard. Come on. Romans 15:6 is the apostles exhortation to praise God with one accord and one mouth. The corporate praising and singing of the raptured firstfruits is like this. The oneness is in the blending, the unity, the harmony, the one accord of the ones suddenly found there singing before Christ.Some of us have experienced this kind of unity in rejoicing and singing unto God. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I see in most of your other comments a knee-jerk contrarian attitude.i won't be playing whack-a-mole for each one.
You're welcomed to interpret Revelation 14 differently if you feel to.I have no doubt that "FIRSTFRUITS" and "HARVEST" relate to maturity in growth. And as in the typology in the Old Testament each was reaped and removed from the field in which they were growing.But that the actual word rapture is not mentioned, is true. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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I don't mean to be promoting any notion of cowardice or easy escape

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I didn't mean that you were. I sometimes write preemptively. I know that some view the whole matter of God taking some up and out of the world seems to them contrary to the Gospel.

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but Jesus does promise to save some from the "hour of trial that is coming upon the whole earth" which surely makes it clear that is the better option.

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And this matter has two sides to it. One is a matter of love towards Christ. And the other is a matter of spiritual strategic warfare.The sudden appearance of the FIRSTFRUITS in Revelation 14 heaven highlights the aspect of love towards Christ.The sudden resurrection and rapture of the MANCHILD in Revelation 12 highlights more the spiritual warfare.On one hand LOVE is a motivation for an early rapture to take place.
On the other hand a strategic taking away of more ground of the Devil is a motivation.In this way Revelation 14 and Revelation 12 both involved pre-tribulation rapture. But the two characteristics of them are distinct.I already showed that the bridal garment of the wife who prepares herself is also her fighting garment as the Lord's accompanying army.Compare Revelation 19:8 with 19:14Varied aspects need to be revealed in this revelation.
There is man man in God's image.
And the is man made to exercise dominion on God's behalf.There is the love of His people to match Him correspondingly, romantically.
And there is the authoritative representation to subdue His enemy Satan. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Faith,

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If I should be left behind I would want to be praying for courage and strength the whole time, for me and all those with me because certainly many of us will die some horrific deaths during that time, and if we manage to survive to see the Lord's return it isn't going to be easy.

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In other words, I don't want to minimize the Tribulation. If Jesus tells us God will shorten it because otherwise nobody would survive it we need to take seriously that it will be far beyond any of the afflictions we soft westerners have had to face. Certainly, developing the courage to go through it would be a great character builder though, so I can be of two minds about this.

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However, at least out of mercy I nevertheless want to exhort those who are not Christians and those Christians who are living below spiritual par to exert themselves toward the Rapture.

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These things may happen in our lifetime. But we do not know for certain that they will.The Christian experiences death to self and removal of his or her heart from the world unto God every time he or she turns the heart to the Lord Jesus.His word to Philadelphia is a word to Christians in brotherly love. They are not spiritual giants but have a little strength and some faithfulness to His precious promises. The door is opened before such which no one is able to shut.They are coming into His purpose to build his living building and be integral constituents of His church.Even two or three gathered into His name may be built together in love and in the Holy Spirit. Pray for your relatives. i don't think we should panic. But we experience daily turning our hearts to Christ to be more and more conformed to His image by the transforming Holy Spirit. Let us each day request that the Lord Jesus apportion to us each day's degree of beholding and reflecting Him. His Spirit will change our image to be like Him by degrees. This is a life long process for the lover of Christ. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Faith, This was a typo. I meant to write this -

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But I think my point was that the phrase "on the day when the Son of Man is revealed" should [NOT] be some rationale to insist that there could only be one rapture or that there is no rapture.

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The fact that some are TAKEN is plainly interpreted in that the disciples ASK - WHERE ? This Where probably means that they are rewarded to accompany Christ to the battle of Armageddon, where Antichrist as a stinking corpse of death is defeated by Christ and His heavenly army in Rev. 19:11-16; Rev. 17:14.As birds of prey, the overcoming saints who were rewarded with early rapture will also be rewarded to accompany Christ in His descent to crush the Satanic forces led by the Antichrist and his False Prophet at Armageddon.This also proves that early secretive rapture is a matter of both vigilant love for the Lord Jesus and exercise of authority to co-conquer His enemies.
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Where are they taken ?

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It depends upon which rapture one refers to.The select group taken which comprise the Firstfruits (Rev. 14:1-5) (living overcomers) and which comprise the Manchild (Rev. 12:5) (deceased overcomers) are first TAKEN to the third heavens.But you were already skeptical about the Firstfruits (Rev. 14:1-5) being in heaven. So I expect that you still are.The Manchild (Rev. 12:5) is the deceased version of the same kind of saints. And it says they were caught up to the throne of God in heaven. The living watching, ready saints are raptured to the third heavens.
And the deceased who lived watching and ready are resurrected and rapture up to God and to His throne.The Firtfruits are obviously a collective (144,000)
And the Manchild is also obviously a collective for he is described as "brothers," "their," "them," and "they" (12:10,11) It could not be talking about the angels because they do not overcome because redemptive blood of Christ. But human beings do overcome Satanic accusation because of the redeeming blood of Christ.And a collective of human beings who are overcomers are also destined to shepherd the nations WITH Jesus Christ. Christ's Father grants His Son to take the lead to shepherd the nations with strong reigning power in His Second Coming as seen in Rev. 19:14,15. Both groups enjoy a pre-tribulation rapture to the third heavens. Both groups will join Christ as His armies and co-reign with Him to shepherd the nations during the millennial kingdom.Now this was pre-tribulation rapture. The short time of a thousand two hundred and sixty days occurs immediately after the rapture of the collective Manchild. The arrival of the Firstfruits and the Manchild in heaven is the cause of Satan to be driven down in great anger to commence the time of the great tribulation. This logic gives me the ground to say that the living overcomers vigilanly found walking in the Spirit and watching for Christ are TAKEN to accompany Christ as He comes DOWN from the third heavens to the final battle at Armageddon at the end of the thousand two hundred and sixty days "great tribulation". Now for the rapture at the end of the great tribulation, Christ has made His descent from the third heavens to the air surrounding the earth. So that majority group (both the living and the deceased) will be raptured "in the air" This is about the rapture at the conclusion of that great tribulation. It corresponds to the reaping of the Harvest in Revelation 14:14-16) Pre-tibulation rapture - Taken to the third heavens.
End-tribulation rapture - Taken to the air, the upper atmosphere near the earth.

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In Matthew 24:31 we are told that angels will gather the elect, but not where they will go. In Matthew 25:31 we are told that the Final Judgement follows, so presumably they will be gathered with the sheep on Jesus’ right.

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But again, this follows the Tribulation and occurs with the Second Coming so it cannot be an early Rapture.

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Matthew 24:31 is not about the rapture of the saints. This verse is about God keeping His promise through the Messiah to gather His Israelite people scattered among the nations.You may remember that I said there was a dividing line of Matthew 24:1-31 and Matthew 24:32 - 25:46. I said that up to verse 31 the answer of Jesus is addressing the disciples as to their status as Jews of the nation of Israel.These words in verse 31 - - pertain to Christ, after the great tribulation, gathering together to the Holy Land the scattered Jews from all parts of the earth. This promise fulfills His word in 23:37 Matthew 24:31 is Christ keeping the Old Testament prophecy of God to gather the scattered Jews back to the Holy Land - see Deut. 30:3-5; Isa. 43:5-7;49:9-11,22-26; 51:11; 56:8; 60:4; 62:1-12; 27:13; Ezek. 34:13,37:21; 28:25 And for spaces's sake I may say something about the sheep and goats of the judgment of Matthew 25:32-46 in another post. This is a judgment of the nations remaining alive at the beginning of the millennial kingdom. This is not the last judgment which is after the millennial kingdom and revealed in Revelation 20:11-15 Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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Not only are you answering a rhetorical question, it also clearly refers to those who are taken in Matthew 24:40-41, which occurs at the time of the Second Coming.

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Caught up (Rev. 12:5) also indicates taken. You don't get the big picture.You don't get the relationship between things revealed in more than one place in Scripture.

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The Manchild is more usually taken to be Jesus. Note that it is said that he will rule the nations with a rod of iron as is the figure in Revelation 19:11-16 - who you identify as Jesus.

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You may go by what Manchild is "usually take to be" or what is the better interpretation. I go by the latter.Ad populism is not always the best way to interpret.And it is clear that some saints conditionally will reign with Christ. I am not sure to what extent you do not fathom the larger picture.What He does in terms of shepherding the nations, He will not do ALONE completely (Rev. 26) . Whereas YOU imagine some difference between Christ reigning and His co-kings among the saints reigning, the Bible sees them as the same. Otherwise it would not say AS ALSO I HAVE RECEIVED FROM MY FATHERPaul told the Christians in the church in Corinth that they may be expected to judge the world. Apparently, you do not know this.
But some of us do. And therefore it is no surprise that some raptured will be taken and rewarded to CO-REIGN with Christ.Did you think salvation was only a matter of getting a "ticket" to go to a happy Heaven ?quote:And the Manchild is also obviously a collective for he is described as "brothers," "their," "them," and "they" (12:10,11)
It is far from obvious that those verses refer to the manchild.

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It’s always inferred from dubious interpretations.

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It is obvious that TO HEAVEN the Manchild is caught up.
What is more disputed is the identity of the Manchild.My time to debate you on this today is under limitation.
But it is an old debate which I feel you cannot win - to make the Manchild mean ONLY the individual child Jesus.Show me where Jesus was caught up to the throne in Heaven after Mary gave birth to Him.The gathering of Matt. 24:31 is not pre-tribulation.The Firstfruits are and the Manchild are.Firstfruits are because of the way Revelation 14 is laid out.
The HEAT of the great tribulation aids to produce the HARVEST.
So the Firstfruits and the Harvest are separated in time by the great tribulation.Failing to notice pre-tribulation rapture is some other passages I regard as due to your dubious ability to get the larger picture. I am not sure how deep this shallowness in your understanding goes.The fact of the matter is that Pre-tribulation verses Post-tribulation debates have gone on for a long time. Some of us see that neither side can completely ignore the other.You seem to be trying to completely ignore evidences for a pre-tribulation rapture. While you do that, I, however, do not completely ignore valid evidences for a end of tribulation rapture.So so-called "Selective rapture" is an interpretation which is valid and takes into account evidences for both. And it reveals evidences for WHY there would be more than one rapture.

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If Matthew 24:31 is to be taken as referring only to Jews you are going to need some actual support from the text, not an assumed division which hardly supports the idea anyway.

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I listed twelve OT references. How many did you look up to examine?
Or did you just object on some general principle?That is all the time I have this morning.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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Massive non-sequiturs are hardly a good way to convince me of your ability to understand.

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Oh well, evidence is not persuasion.

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Then please make your case that your preferred interpretation is better. Empty bluster is not convincing.

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Everybody probably arrives at a "preferred interpretation".
Why shouldn't I "prefer" a more convincing interpretation?

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Which doesn’t matter.

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Co-reigning with Christ mattered to Christ.
So I believe it matters.

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The phrase is still a good reason to think they are intended to be the same person, and it’s better than anything you’ve produced to support your interpretation.

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One Person is Christ Who is to reign - (Revelation 19:15)
The OTHER persons [plural] are those who overcome (Revelation 2:26,27) The Manchild is consistent with the evidence because " THEY overcame him ..."

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I don’t think that taking a sign in the sky literally is necessarily sensible. (I will note that, according to Acts 1:9 Jesus was taken up to Heaven).

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In Acts 1:11 the disciples are assured that AS He ascended, similarly He will descend again someday. My "preferred interpretation" is that this means there will be similar characteristics of His second coming as to when they beheld Him going into heaven.

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But how about you - can you show that the dead overcomers were taken up to Heaven after their literal births ? Or do we have a double standard here ?

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One reason that I prefer to interpret the Manchild consists of those saints that have DIED is because the text says that they loved not their soul-life, even unto DEATH. My preferred understanding is that Revelation, in its thoroughness, reveals both a vindication of the living overcomers as Firstfruits and deceased overcomers as the corporate Manchild.That chapter 12 would reveal this resurrection and rapture seems consistent with the REQUEST of the souls of the martyred saints underneath the altar in chapter 6:9-11 in the Fifth Seal. These saints who died for their faith ask God how long before they are vindicated. Part of the answer is in the vision of the Manchild in chapter 12. Faithful believers both from the old covenant time and the new covenant time constituted the stronger part of the universal bright woman. A remnant from within the whole body of God's people, as a stronger part, will be resurrected and raptured as a Man-child and destined to co-reign with Christ.When he goes up Satan is cast down and the time and times and half a time of great tribulation commence (Rev. 12:5,6, 14) The "weaker" element of the Woman who brought forth the Manchild of strength is persecuted severely on the earth for \[B\]a thousand two hundred and sixty days.If one objects to calling this a pre-tribulation rapture, it certainly is a pre- a thousand two hundred and sixty days rapture.I prefer to understand it as a pre-great tribulation rapture.

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I’m not seeing it because it isn’t there. If you have big picture arguments you are free to make them, but if you try to tell me that Matthew 24:41-42 refers to events before the Tribulation without any reasonable arguments at all - as you,be been doing - it is not going to work and it is hardly my fault.

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I don't promise to convince you. Why would I guarantee your persuasion?I have no problem understanding the warnings of Matthew 24:41-42
as they are consistent perfectly with the parables about His coming and expecting His servants to be on their guard. This kind of warning is more likely about unsuspecting moment rather than a tumultous and sensational annoucement. The following verse also suggests SUPRISE in arrival rather than LOUD ANNOUCEMENT of arrival. As long as the Christian gets the message to live vigilantly, watching that he or she is in the presence of Jesus Christ, and that eventually this presence will be a matter of physically SEEING Him, it does not matter too much when he thinks the moment will come.My preferred interpretation is that THIS warning is for a time when we do not expect Christ to come. At the end of the great tribulation He is mightily EXPECTED to appear in visible glory.If He comes to snatch some remnant away and latter comes to reap a harvest majority Acts 1:9-11 is STILL true.

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Your Old Testament references are by your own words to a promise to gather the Israelites together again. I am going to generously assume you are right about that. It’s still a lousy argument. Jesus’ chosen is more naturally read to refer to Christians and even if it did refer to Israelites alone the link with 24:31 remains intact.

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Jesus spoke of Himself as the OT God incarnate who desired to gather the Jews in Matthew 23:37-39, We Christians believe that Jesus is God incarnate. So that He would continue that theme in Matthew 24:29-30 is consistent with Him being Yawheh incarnate.Whatever the promises of God there are, the Yes and the Amen are in Jesus Christ (Second Corinthians 1:20) If you have a better way to live for Christ's coming again, you follow that.
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Paulk,

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If you have big picture arguments you are free to make them, but if you try to tell me that Matthew 24:41-42 refers to events before the Tribulation without any reasonable arguments at all - as you,be been doing - it is not going to work and it is hardly my fault.

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It is not that hard to see pre- great tribulation is the time of Matthew 24:41,42 1.) Jesus compares the time of watching in verses 41,42 to the days BEFORE the flood (v.38) . Since the great tribulation, like the days of Noah's flood, are also days of divine judgment "In those days before the flood" correspond to those days before the days of judgment during the great tribulation.It fits better than to imagine He was speaking of something AFTER the judgment. 2.) In verse 38 He compares the time to UNTIL the day in which Noah entered into the ark . Since entering into the ark strongly implies salvation from the judgment of the flood, being taken BEFORE judgment falls on the world is the most logical comparison.If He meant AFTER the flood He could have plainly said so. 3.) The words "AT THAT TIME ... two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left" pertains to a time equivalent to BEFORE the judgment of the flood of Noah. Correspondingly BEFORE the judgments of the great tribulation. 4.) The man TAKEN very logically compares to the rescue BEFORE the flood of those who entered into the ark. It is less likely to interpret that the one is TAKEN away somewhere to be judged by God.Though some Bible students argue that the POSITIVE situation is to be LEFT and the NEGATIVE situation is to be TAKEN, the other way around I think is more logical and consistent with verse 44 to be READY.Would Jesus mean to be watching and ready to be LEFT ? I don't think so. 5.) Somehow being READY to be IGNORED and LEFT makes less sense than being READY to be PAID attention to and TAKEN.Since the great tribulation is to come upon the world, being taken FROM the world is more logically removal from the place under judgment rather than transporting TO a place of judgment. 6.) The Son of Man is mightily EXPECTED by the believers towards the conclusion of the time of great tribulation more so than BEFORE. His coming BEFORE would have more of an element of SURPRISE with which He speaks.IE. Things are going along seemingly rather normally. 7.) The dire warning for the disciples NOT to presume that He is delaying His arrival makes more sense to a pre-tribulation time. All that Paul tells the Thessalonians about the appearing of Christ suggests signs that indicate His coming is NEAR. Therefore the warnings of Matthew 24:48-50 more logically suite a time in which nothing particular signals that He is near. 8.) The punishment elaborated towards the servant that does NOT watch to be ready seems more pertaining to realizing that one has been left to share his lot with unbelievers. Of course unbelievers will not be raptured. So for the unwatchful Christian to be left and not taken would give rise to the feeling of being cut asunder and deemed the SAME as hypocrites and unbelievers. If I was a Christian living in sloppiness, looseness, perhaps in fornication, uncleaness, or drunken stupor of mistreating my fellow believers, and some brethren were taken and I was LEFT, I would feet cut asunder from my Lord albeit temporarily.It also would serve to give rise to repentance and readiness for the great tribulation to soon follow such a pre-tribulation selective rapture.While these reasons may not be 100% water tight, I'd be welcomed to see your contrasting logic that the warnings of Matthew 24:41,42 make more sense to you as pertaining to after the predicted great tribulation.Because verses 41,42 fall on the side of the my dividing line of verse 31, Jesus is speaking to the disciples more according to their status as constituents of the church than Jewish members of Israel.I admit that it was tempting to view these warnings as post-tribulation because of verse 31. However I have maintained that beginning with verse 32 the more relevant status of the disciples there is as members of the Christian church.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.