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Author Topic:   Christianity and the End Times
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9516
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 585 of 1748 (837038)
07-25-2018 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 554 by Phat
07-25-2018 8:28 AM


Re: Some sources
Phat writes:
But the reality is that only by our thinking/imagining can we even be able to approach the GOD Who is.
Yes, that should give you pause for thought. Why is it that it is only by imagining that you can approach the god who is (As if that means anything at all.)
Do you have any better suggestions for believers...apart from your rant against superstition and appeal to logic?
No. I think you're all deluded and looking for impossible and improbable answers to your own problems.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 554 by Phat, posted 07-25-2018 8:28 AM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9516
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 588 of 1748 (837071)
07-26-2018 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 587 by GDR
07-26-2018 11:26 AM


Re: Open Theism Allows For A Better Communion
GDR writes:
I recently read a very good book on this subject. The writer holds a PHD in philosophy and religious studies from McGill, (Montreal) and, as well masters degrees in humanities, social sciences from the University of Toronto and a math degree as well. He has written a book called Freedom All the Way Up in which he talks about God creating a world using randomness with enough possible outcomes that allows for a sufficiently high degree of probability that given sufficient times it would produce creatures capable of choosing agapic love.
It doesn't matter how many ologies people have, they have no more knowledge of God than you or I. Once upon a time you got literate people making wordy stuff up, these days you get sciency sounding stuff made up too. It's all of a piece; not a shred of actual evidence for any of it - just different kinds of people making stuff up to suit their worlds.
btw - we already know that there is enough randomness and time to create us, because here we are. Whether a god set it up is still an unanswered question. And whether it was *your* god is yet another.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 587 by GDR, posted 07-26-2018 11:26 AM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 589 by Phat, posted 07-26-2018 12:29 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9516
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 590 of 1748 (837075)
07-26-2018 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 589 by Phat
07-26-2018 12:29 PM


Re: Open Theism Allows For A Better Communion
Phat writes:
One thing that I disagree that you predict is that religion is dying.
The facts, as usual are against you. Need I produce the data yet again?
You will find that it will never die as future problems and challenges occur. You may well argue that it is a crutch and that rationale and reason are in fact our anchors, but when times get extremely tough and the solutions get scarce people will always turn to belief.
Times are getting better Phat. And the fact that some people might turn to religion as a last resort should give you the clue that we invented it because of need, not fact.
Hypothetically if you were to entertain a theistic argument, does Open Theism sound more rational than Calvinism?
Calvanism is preposterous. Theism is at least internally consistent.
Why specifically do you think that faith and belief are not at all good for people to entertain?
It's such a waste of time and resource. I don't know what the global turnover of organised religion is but it's a collossal figure and the time you guys spend on your knees begging is enormous. Time and miney better spent doing something actually useful.
Quite apart from people needing to growup and think for themselves, stop creating warring tribes and get in with leading useful lives.
Assuming God does not exist, do you still see the threat of a possible global war/endtime scenario due to the foibles of humans themselves? What is a good course to take to avoid such a disaster?
That's a confused question. Wars will occur whether there's a god or not. We know what the best chance of avoiding them is - increased trade, more equal sharing of wealth, democracy and solid institutions defending it, education, health systems, treaties etc etc

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 589 by Phat, posted 07-26-2018 12:29 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9516
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 593 of 1748 (837078)
07-26-2018 1:04 PM


Fyi

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9516
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 761 of 1748 (838419)
08-21-2018 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 751 by Faith
08-21-2018 3:54 AM


Faith writes:
I know this sounds crackpot, and perhaps it is, but in the last few weeks I've had this, well, conviction of sorts, that the Rapture is almost here, that it could happen very very soon.
It's not almost here and it won't happen by October. Or ever.
But I predict that when it doesn't happen it won't change a thing for you.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 751 by Faith, posted 08-21-2018 3:54 AM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9516
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 764 of 1748 (838422)
08-21-2018 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 762 by Faith
08-21-2018 12:18 PM


Re: On Our Best Behavior
Faith writes:
Well, if it DID happen soon, if the Christians just happened suddenly to disappear from the planet in a mass exodus, what effect do you think it might have on you?
I'd thank th Lord that he's made the earth a better place 😇
Would you just rationalize it away or would it make a believer of you?
If it really happened in such an obvious way, I'd do what I always do when the evidence is so strong, I'd change my mind.
That's the difference between rationalists and irrationalists.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 762 by Faith, posted 08-21-2018 12:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 766 by Faith, posted 08-21-2018 12:29 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9516
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 768 of 1748 (838426)
08-21-2018 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 766 by Faith
08-21-2018 12:29 PM


Re: On Our Best Behavior
Yeh, well, no matter, it ain't happening and you'll be just as convinced about your beliefs when it doesn't. Probably more so, that's the way it always works with failed prophecy.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 766 by Faith, posted 08-21-2018 12:29 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 770 by Faith, posted 08-21-2018 12:41 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9516
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 772 of 1748 (838430)
08-21-2018 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 770 by Faith
08-21-2018 12:41 PM


Re: On Our Best Behavior
It's because you want it. And you want it in your lifetime. The end of days is never anything but nigh. Yet never happens.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 770 by Faith, posted 08-21-2018 12:41 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 788 by Faith, posted 08-22-2018 2:37 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 792 by Phat, posted 08-22-2018 8:15 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9516
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 789 of 1748 (838455)
08-22-2018 3:21 AM
Reply to: Message 788 by Faith
08-22-2018 2:37 AM


Re: On Our Best Behavior
Faith writes:
Um, but why this sense of imminence right now? I only very recently came to believe in the pre-trib Rapture and it is still more or less new to me.
There's your reason
On the other hand I've believed we are in the final end days for some time now, but the pre-trib Rapture had never completely convinced me until very recently. I'm not sure that explains this sense of imminence either.
Like I say. The end times are always nigh. They have to be for anybody to be interested. That's why the end times were supposed to be within the lifetimes of the generation listening to Jesus. It's ok Faith, you can relax Jesus didn't say:
For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here whose great, great, great, great, great (etc) grandchildren will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom. (Matthew 16: 27, 28)

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 788 by Faith, posted 08-22-2018 2:37 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 798 by Faith, posted 08-22-2018 12:34 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9516
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 800 of 1748 (838470)
08-22-2018 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 798 by Faith
08-22-2018 12:34 PM


Re: On Our Best Behavior
Faith writes:
Nothing you said explains my having a sense of the imminence, specifically of the Rapture, in the last few weeks. It's unusual.
You've been reading about it and decided to believe it. It's not surprising you now think it's about to happen.
It might mean something.
It means that you're deluded. Nothing is going to happen. Nothing has ever happened when people like you declare the end of the world.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 798 by Faith, posted 08-22-2018 12:34 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 801 by Faith, posted 08-22-2018 12:50 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9516
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 803 of 1748 (838473)
08-22-2018 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 801 by Faith
08-22-2018 12:50 PM


Re: On Our Best Behavior
Faith writes:
OK, well you could be right that it's not going to happen within the next month as I've had in mind.
Of course it isn't.
But even if it doesn't that is no proof it won't happen at all.
Oh, good grief...
The fact that my house didn't fly off into the sky today doesn't mean it will never fly off at all either.
You doomsday merchants have been spouting this nonsense for thousands of years. But you learn nothing at all from it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 801 by Faith, posted 08-22-2018 12:50 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 804 by Faith, posted 08-22-2018 1:08 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9516
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 806 of 1748 (838477)
08-22-2018 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 804 by Faith
08-22-2018 1:08 PM


Re: On Our Best Behavior
Faith writes:
I don't recall your having mentioned a prophecy that your house will fly off into the sky.
You think it would make any difference?
We can't "learn" what you want us to learn because we are looking at a prophecy that will eventually be fulfilled.
The prophecy was to be fulfilled withing the lifetime of those hearing the prophecy. It failed. Ever since people like you predict it again and again. And again and again it doesn't happen. And you learn nothing from it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 804 by Faith, posted 08-22-2018 1:08 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 807 by Faith, posted 08-22-2018 1:22 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9516
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 811 of 1748 (838482)
08-22-2018 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 807 by Faith
08-22-2018 1:22 PM


Re: On Our Best Behavior
Faith writes:
We know it is future
Despite the bible saying very plainly that it was to happen in the life of those there listening.
insisting it must already have happened is a delusion of the unbelievers.
Insisting that it didn’t happen at all is simple reality.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 807 by Faith, posted 08-22-2018 1:22 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9516
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 829 of 1748 (838505)
08-22-2018 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 821 by Faith
08-22-2018 4:32 PM


Re: Clouds and Sky
Faith writes:
I read it as a real cloud and figure it was read that way in the first century too and all the time in between. Whenever I read early interpretations of scripture I don't find anything in them that is culturally different from our readings today.
Yes, you read it the way you want to read it. Disegarding the straightforward words of someone talking directly to the people in front of him, you decide that he's talking to you 2,000 years later.
Well here's a thing, you’ll know on the 1st October how wrong what you feel and believe is.
Correction: it won't change a thing for you.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 821 by Faith, posted 08-22-2018 4:32 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 834 by Faith, posted 08-23-2018 2:11 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9516
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 835 of 1748 (838513)
08-23-2018 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 834 by Faith
08-23-2018 2:11 AM


Re: Clouds and Sky
Faith writes:
Being wrong about a particular timing of the Rapture isn't going to challenge the idea of the Rapture.
Yes, I know. Being wrong about pretty much everything has never changed your mind about anything.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 834 by Faith, posted 08-23-2018 2:11 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 837 by Faith, posted 08-23-2018 2:41 AM Tangle has not replied

  
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