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Author Topic:   Falsifying a young Universe. (re: Supernova 1987A)
creation
Member
Posts: 238
Joined: 01-14-2018


Message 766 of 806 (841190)
10-09-2018 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 760 by ringo
10-08-2018 11:53 AM


Re: The Win-Win situation for Science
My side will win.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 760 by ringo, posted 10-08-2018 11:53 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 772 by Tangle, posted 10-09-2018 3:05 AM creation has responded
 Message 775 by ringo, posted 10-09-2018 11:54 AM creation has responded

    
creation
Member
Posts: 238
Joined: 01-14-2018


Message 767 of 806 (841191)
10-09-2018 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 759 by Larni
10-08-2018 10:22 AM


Re: A couple questions for creation ...
Science doesn't know. It doesn't so much as know there is any change!!!!!!!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 759 by Larni, posted 10-08-2018 10:22 AM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 769 by Larni, posted 10-09-2018 2:21 AM creation has responded

    
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1726
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 768 of 806 (841194)
10-09-2018 2:16 AM
Reply to: Message 765 by creation
10-09-2018 12:29 AM


Re: The Win-Win situation for Science
What you see here in the fishbowl is what you see. It is real...here.

Ok, we agree that we see things from here.

And some of us keep records of what we see.

And some of us notice that some of the things we see look similar or the same and some other things look different. And some of us keep records of what we see.

And some of us start comparing the things we see and start figuring out ways to measure the comparisons. And some of us keep records of what we see.

And some of us start making lists of the things we see, and lists of the comparisons, and lists of the measurements. And some of us keep records of what we are doing.

And some of us start trying to explain what is going on with the things we see, and how they are related, and what they are made of, and thousands of other parameters. And some of us keep records of what we are doing.

And some of us start writing about what we have figured out AND what we are speculating about it. And some of us start sending letters and communicating with other people who are interested and we start having meetings and form societies based specialized interests and start publishing journals.

And some of us decide that it might help all of us have a clearer understanding of the observations that we are reporting if we define some standardized measurement practices and reporting methods.

It turns out that all that organizing and standardizing and clarifying language was started 300 years ago by the first systematic scientists and a lot of the kinks have been worked out of the system since then. It is a modern human achievement so it still has flaws, but the goal is as accurate a description as possible of our observations from the earth and recently a few points off the Earth.

You wrote: What you see here in the fishbowl is what you see. It is real...here.

That doesn't change the methodology of the way we make our observations or report them. Millions of observations have been compared to experimental results here and when we observe a similarity we study it further. So, for a long time people have been poring over the data and now using high speed computers also, and a couple of the things in the observations do not seem like they fit together, and they have been highly publicized. Those puzzles are fascinating, but I don't think they are the fishbowl affect you are talking about.

If time were not the same that would wreak bloody havok on your models though. Of course.

Wow, bloody havoc, huh?

Do you know what a model is? Models are not reality, they tell us about reality. That's all, that's it.

If reality changes or turns out to be different then it seems bloody obvious that we change or replace the model so it accurately tells us about reality.

You act like something is going to explode if our model needs to be tweaked. Are you daft?


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 765 by creation, posted 10-09-2018 12:29 AM creation has not yet responded

    
Larni
Member
Posts: 3961
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


(1)
Message 769 of 806 (841195)
10-09-2018 2:21 AM
Reply to: Message 767 by creation
10-09-2018 12:32 AM


Re: A couple questions for creation ...
I’m sorry, I wasn’t very clear. I’m asking in your opinion: what causes the change in how time works the further away things are?

And what is the rate of change? Is it proportional to the distance?


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 767 by creation, posted 10-09-2018 12:32 AM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 777 by creation, posted 10-11-2018 9:05 AM Larni has responded

    
Larni
Member
Posts: 3961
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


(1)
Message 770 of 806 (841196)
10-09-2018 2:26 AM
Reply to: Message 764 by creation
10-09-2018 12:27 AM


Re: Voyager 1 enters new space
Creation writes:

The bible makes more sense if your old age models and stellar evolution stuff is wrong.


I see now. This is all just to get your religion to work.

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 764 by creation, posted 10-09-2018 12:27 AM creation has not yet responded

    
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1726
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 771 of 806 (841197)
10-09-2018 2:27 AM
Reply to: Message 764 by creation
10-09-2018 12:27 AM


Re: Voyager 1 enters new space
The bible makes more sense if your old age models and stellar evolution stuff is wrong.

The bible doesn't make any sense, and it doesn't have any connection with "old age models and stellar evolution stuff."

Since you cannot prove what time is like in the far universe you are defeated.

You're going to have to up your game.

Edited by Tanypteryx, : No reason given.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 764 by creation, posted 10-09-2018 12:27 AM creation has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6182
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


(2)
Message 772 of 806 (841200)
10-09-2018 3:05 AM
Reply to: Message 766 by creation
10-09-2018 12:30 AM


Re: The Win-Win situation for Science
creation writes:

My side will win.

The reason you're here is because your 'side', lost 200 years ago. No-one but a few loony-tune fundies believe your rubbish anymore and there are less of those every year.

The reason you lost is that our side - ie reason, rationality, evidence and knowledge - demonstrated your errors beyond reasonable doubt a long time ago and even your religion accepts it.

As demonstrated here, your response to this knowledge is empty one liners. That appears to be all you have.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 766 by creation, posted 10-09-2018 12:30 AM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 781 by creation, posted 10-11-2018 9:10 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3961
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 773 of 806 (841201)
10-09-2018 3:33 AM
Reply to: Message 764 by creation
10-09-2018 12:27 AM


Re: Voyager 1 enters new space
Hypothetically, if it was shown that space time had the same qualities regardless of distance to Earth, how would that affect your faith in Jesus?

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 764 by creation, posted 10-09-2018 12:27 AM creation has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19570
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 774 of 806 (841207)
10-09-2018 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 764 by creation
10-09-2018 12:27 AM


Re: Voyager 1 enters new space
Voyager is not even one light day away!!! Yet you make claims for billions of light years away!!!!!!!!?

This is called the logical fallacy of the red herring misdirection, where your response has no actual bearing to the Voyager 1 issue:

Message 762(RAZD): This means that Voyager 1 is now in a place that is not like anything we have experienced before ... but which was predicted by scientific theory developed from what we know.

Your whole fantasy concocted argument is that science falsely assumes that conditions beyond our experience cannot actually be considered to be of the same nature as what we have experienced.

This fantasy concoction basis is now falsified by actual experience matching predictions made by science from what we have previously experienced leading to this new experience.

and curiously it is now validated by Voyager 2:

quote:
Voyager 2 Detects Hints That Interstellar Space Is Nearby

Two of Voyager 2's instruments have measured an increase in the number of high-energy particles called cosmic rays hitting the spacecraft, according to a NASA release. Scientists think that the heliosphere, the region of particles and magnetic fields under the Sun’s influence, blocks some cosmic rays. An increase in their rate means that the probe could be nearing the heliopause, the heliosphere’s outer boundary.

Voyager 1 measured an increase in cosmic rays back in May 2012 before crossing the heliopause three months later—a measurement accompanied by a sudden increase in the density of the ambient plasma. Perhaps Voyager 2 is now getting close, too, though one Princeton scientist who uses Voyager data, Jamie Rankin, stressed to Gizmodo that Voyager 2 hasn’t yet reached interstellar space.


These new measurements are based on direct measurements, while the ones from Voyager 1 were inferred from vibrations -- ie they use different detectors to measure the density change.

Gosh, scientifically gathered evidence of a "different nature" surrounding the solar system now being replicated, further validating the science.

... Yet you make claims for billions of light years away!!!!!!!!?

Claims (that were never mere assumptions) which now have much higher confidence with this new evidence validating the scientific model of the universe, while your assertion is weakened catastrophically.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 764 by creation, posted 10-09-2018 12:27 AM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 780 by creation, posted 10-11-2018 9:09 AM RAZD has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15404
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 775 of 806 (841212)
10-09-2018 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 766 by creation
10-09-2018 12:30 AM


Re: The Win-Win situation for Science
creation writes:

My side will win.


Your side lost a hundred and fifty years ago. Will it raise it's ugly zombie-head again? Maybe. But you're not doing anything to resurrect it by flaunting your ignorance here.

Get thee to a university. Get a science degree. Do the experiments to prove that everything the thousands of scientists have been doing is wrong.

Of course, if you do that, you'll just learn that science was right and creationism was wrong. Everybody who has studied the matter honestly comes to that conclusion.

Most likely, you will have dropped this creationist silliness before you're old enough to drive.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 766 by creation, posted 10-09-2018 12:30 AM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 779 by creation, posted 10-11-2018 9:07 AM ringo has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7575
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 776 of 806 (841274)
10-10-2018 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 757 by creation
10-08-2018 9:50 AM


Re: The Win-Win situation for Science
creation writes:

Mentioning fables is not vehemently supporting them. The basis for them was shown, and you must deal with it or lose.

According to your argument, if you see a car coming down the street it is simply a fable because it is happening out there where you are not. That is how silly your position is.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 757 by creation, posted 10-08-2018 9:50 AM creation has not yet responded

  
creation
Member
Posts: 238
Joined: 01-14-2018


Message 777 of 806 (841293)
10-11-2018 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 769 by Larni
10-09-2018 2:21 AM


Re: A couple questions for creation ...
Science doesn't know.

In my belief set, God created it and set it up.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 769 by Larni, posted 10-09-2018 2:21 AM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 778 by creation, posted 10-11-2018 9:06 AM creation has not yet responded
 Message 782 by Larni, posted 10-11-2018 9:29 AM creation has responded
 Message 791 by dwise1, posted 10-12-2018 5:23 PM creation has responded

    
creation
Member
Posts: 238
Joined: 01-14-2018


Message 778 of 806 (841294)
10-11-2018 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 777 by creation
10-11-2018 9:05 AM


Re: A couple questions for creation ...
No. My argument is that you have no idea what is beyond your street...yet are selling a map of the universe.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 777 by creation, posted 10-11-2018 9:05 AM creation has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 790 by Phat, posted 10-12-2018 4:11 PM creation has not yet responded

    
creation
Member
Posts: 238
Joined: 01-14-2018


Message 779 of 806 (841295)
10-11-2018 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 775 by ringo
10-09-2018 11:54 AM


Re: The Win-Win situation for Science
Man has no clue about creation and universities are the most clueless of all on the issue.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 775 by ringo, posted 10-09-2018 11:54 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 783 by ringo, posted 10-11-2018 12:42 PM creation has responded

    
creation
Member
Posts: 238
Joined: 01-14-2018


Message 780 of 806 (841297)
10-11-2018 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 774 by RAZD
10-09-2018 9:36 AM


Re: Voyager 1 enters new space
I will allow for man knowing about what the fishbowl is like. The voyager is in the fishbowl. Not even a light day away.

Even there you admit the info is indirect. Ha.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 774 by RAZD, posted 10-09-2018 9:36 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 796 by RAZD, posted 10-13-2018 1:24 AM creation has responded

    
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