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Author Topic:   Falsifying a young Universe. (re: Supernova 1987A)
Taq
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Posts: 7610
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 751 of 944 (840839)
10-04-2018 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 749 by creation
10-04-2018 3:47 PM


Re: The Win-Win situation for Science
creation writes:

Man knows a lot about this fishbowl we live in. Too bad he hasn't been anywhere else huh?

You are dodging again. How do you know when it is safe to cross the street if you can't trust anything you see that is more than 1 millimeter from your retina?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 749 by creation, posted 10-04-2018 3:47 PM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 752 by creation, posted 10-05-2018 12:00 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
creation
Member
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 752 of 944 (840905)
10-05-2018 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 751 by Taq
10-04-2018 4:01 PM


Re: The Win-Win situation for Science
Playing the pesky wabbit role is no substitute for making some clear and reasoned point.

Your job is to show time is the same in far space as here, not to just be aware of how time works here.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 751 by Taq, posted 10-04-2018 4:01 PM Taq has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 753 by ringo, posted 10-05-2018 12:18 PM creation has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15740
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 753 of 944 (840914)
10-05-2018 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 752 by creation
10-05-2018 12:00 PM


Re: The Win-Win situation for Science
creation writes:

Your job is to show time is the same in far space as here....


Your job is to show that it's different.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 752 by creation, posted 10-05-2018 12:00 PM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 754 by creation, posted 10-05-2018 11:33 PM ringo has responded

  
creation
Member
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 754 of 944 (840962)
10-05-2018 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 753 by ringo
10-05-2018 12:18 PM


Re: The Win-Win situation for Science
This is a science thread and the claim made by science as science are what need to be vehemently supported. I could support my dates six ways from Sunday, but what the issue is here, is your dates that you thought were science.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 753 by ringo, posted 10-05-2018 12:18 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 755 by ringo, posted 10-06-2018 12:07 PM creation has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15740
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 755 of 944 (840989)
10-06-2018 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 754 by creation
10-05-2018 11:33 PM


Re: The Win-Win situation for Science
creation writes:

This is a science thread and the claim made by science as science are what need to be vehemently supported.


They have been vehemently supported. This entire forum does that. All of science does that. In opposition, we have only a few little peeps from you.

creation writes:

I could support my dates six ways from Sunday, but what the issue is here, is your dates that you thought were science.


No, that isn't an issue at all. The scientific dates are no more an issue than the sun rising every day or water being wet. The fact that you don't understand the science makes not one iota of difference to the world.

Your silly ideas have been banished from our schools, hopefully forever, because they have no basis in reality. If you want your ideas to be taken seriously, the onus is entirely on you to prove them.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 754 by creation, posted 10-05-2018 11:33 PM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 757 by creation, posted 10-08-2018 9:50 AM ringo has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19719
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 756 of 944 (841029)
10-07-2018 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 740 by creation
10-02-2018 7:17 PM


Re: A couple questions for creation ...
No. Currently man has not gone beyond that line, if he does, then we extend it. ...

In other words it is pure fantasy, and no rational person need give it a second thought. Got it.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 740 by creation, posted 10-02-2018 7:17 PM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 758 by creation, posted 10-08-2018 9:51 AM RAZD has responded

  
creation
Member
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 757 of 944 (841114)
10-08-2018 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 755 by ringo
10-06-2018 12:07 PM


Re: The Win-Win situation for Science
Mentioning fables is not vehemently supporting them. The basis for them was shown, and you must deal with it or lose.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 755 by ringo, posted 10-06-2018 12:07 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 760 by ringo, posted 10-08-2018 11:53 AM creation has responded
 Message 761 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-08-2018 12:50 PM creation has responded
 Message 776 by Taq, posted 10-10-2018 5:09 PM creation has not yet responded

    
creation
Member
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 758 of 944 (841115)
10-08-2018 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 756 by RAZD
10-07-2018 10:33 AM


Re: A couple questions for creation ...
Man does see beyond the fishbowl. But it is pure fantasy to interpret all he sees here strictly by fishbowl rules...and that is what science does.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 756 by RAZD, posted 10-07-2018 10:33 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 759 by Larni, posted 10-08-2018 10:22 AM creation has responded
 Message 762 by RAZD, posted 10-08-2018 2:05 PM creation has responded

    
Larni
Member
Posts: 3965
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 759 of 944 (841121)
10-08-2018 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 758 by creation
10-08-2018 9:51 AM


Re: A couple questions for creation ...
What causes the change in how time works further away from the Earth?

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 758 by creation, posted 10-08-2018 9:51 AM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 767 by creation, posted 10-09-2018 12:32 AM Larni has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15740
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 760 of 944 (841126)
10-08-2018 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 757 by creation
10-08-2018 9:50 AM


Re: The Win-Win situation for Science
creation writes:

Mentioning fables is not vehemently supporting them.


There is, quite literally, tons of support for the scientific answers. Every university library has, quite literally, tons of books and journals which support the scientific answers.

On this site right here, there are thousands of words supporting the scientific answers, with references to those tons of books and journals.

You, in contrast, have presented nothing to refute them. Have you even read this thread?

Calling all of that evidence "fables" just makes you look like a fool.

creation writes:

The basis for them was shown, and you must deal with it or lose.


You keep missing the fact that you have already lost. There is no creationism in our public schools. Is that you winning?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 757 by creation, posted 10-08-2018 9:50 AM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 766 by creation, posted 10-09-2018 12:30 AM ringo has responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1893
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 761 of 944 (841139)
10-08-2018 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 757 by creation
10-08-2018 9:50 AM


Re: The Win-Win situation for Science
Mentioning fables is not vehemently supporting them. The basis for them was shown, and you must deal with it or lose.

Well, on this debate forum, losing would be the one who makes up imaginary limitations on history or the visible Universe with no independent supporting evidence. Losing in your case is not being able to convince a single person that you know anything.

What I find interesting is that you seem to think that you will convince anyone that what we observe from our vantage point on Earth is not what we observe.

Our telescopes collect and record light from the distant Universe and we see differences between distant objects and we can compare them with nearby objects and no one has noticed limitations of the sort you are asserting.

In science, the goal is to try and collect as much evidence about the Universe and how it works as possible and to describe it in a way that all fits together. In the process we always observe features that cannot be explained initially based on existing evidence. Those are the things that scientists love, that's what they live for. That is what they will spend a lifetime researching, trying to understand. In the process they make all sorts of other discoveries even if they have not found out what is going on with the initial mystery.

They make their observations, experiments, and interpretations here on earth and if the reality is different in the distant past or in the distant Universe it does not change the fact that telescopes still collect light and that we can dig up ancient human artifacts and fossils of long dead organisms and see traces left behind by geological processes and ancient life.

There is no evidence of your different natures or fishbowl and until scientists notice their affects on observations they will not be taken into account. There are factors that limit what scientists can observe and they are well known, but the limitations you are arguing for here were thrown on heap of failed ideas long ago. Trying to link them to your religious beliefs ensures that no one will take you seriously.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 757 by creation, posted 10-08-2018 9:50 AM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 765 by creation, posted 10-09-2018 12:29 AM Tanypteryx has responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19719
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 762 of 944 (841150)
10-08-2018 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 758 by creation
10-08-2018 9:51 AM


Voyager 1 enters new space
Man does see beyond the fishbowl. ...

But you have no way to tell whether your fantasy fishbowl exists: it is pure speculation that you have conjured out of nothing.

Fascinating the delusions some people have.

... But it is pure fantasy to interpret all he sees here strictly by fishbowl rules...and that is what science does.

Tell us: absent any indication of any kind to the contrary, why should any rational person consider pure fantasy instead of what we know of how things operate? Every year the Voyager 1 Probe validates that approach, while at the same time pushing your fantasy fishbowl further and further in the realms of delusion.

quote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyager_1

... At a distance of 142.31 astronomical units (2.12891010 km; 1.32291010 mi) (21.289 billion kilometers; 13.229 billion miles) from the Sun as of June 4, 2018,[3] it is the most distant man-made object from Earth.[4]


Seems you've put all your eggs in a shrinking, empty basket ... and it is still empty. Imagine that.

addendum:

But that's not all, the Voyager 1 probe provides additional validation of the scientific approach:

quote:
After completing its primary mission with the flyby of Saturn on November 12, 1980, Voyager 1 became the third of five artificial objects to achieve the escape velocity that will allow them to leave the Solar System. On August 25, 2012, Voyager 1 became the first spacecraft to cross the heliopause and enter the interstellar medium.[8] ...

Interstellar Medium

On September 12, 2013, NASA officially confirmed that Voyager 1 had reached the interstellar medium in August 2012 as previously observed, with a generally accepted date of August 25, 2012 (~10d short of 34yrs since launch), the date durable changes in the density of energetic particles were first detected.[62][63][64] ... A key finding that persuaded many scientists that the heliopause had been crossed was an indirect measurement of an 80-fold increase in electron density, based on the frequency of plasma oscillations observed beginning on April 9, 2013,[63] triggered by a solar outburst that had occurred in March 2012[60] (electron density is expected to be two orders of magnitude higher outside the heliopause than within).[62] Weaker sets of oscillations measured in October and November 2012[72][75] provided additional data. An indirect measurement was required because Voyager 1's plasma spectrometer had stopped working in 1980.[64] In September 2013, NASA released audio renditions of these plasma waves. The recordings represent the first sounds to be captured in interstellar space.[76]


This means that Voyager 1 is now in a place that is not like anything we have experienced before ... but which was predicted by scientific theory developed from what we know.

That's how science works ... and works ... and works ... and keeps on working.

Sorry to burst your bubble, again.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : addendum


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 758 by creation, posted 10-08-2018 9:51 AM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 763 by dwise1, posted 10-08-2018 2:44 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply
 Message 764 by creation, posted 10-09-2018 12:27 AM RAZD has responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3207
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


(3)
Message 763 of 944 (841153)
10-08-2018 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 762 by RAZD
10-08-2018 2:05 PM


Re: A couple questions for creation ...
Tell us: absent any indication of any kind to the contrary, why should any rational person consider pure fantasy instead of what we know of how things operate? Every year the Voyager 1 Probe validates that approach, while at the same time pushing your fantasy fishbowl further and further in the realms of delusion.

This strikes me as an instance of "God of the Gaps" theology. Far too often, we have witnessed creationists resorting to the "God of the Gaps" argument that, since we don't know something ergo GOD! Frankly, the "God of the Gaps" has been at the heart of "creation science" for decades: "Do you know exactly and completely how this happened?" (Usually "impossible questions" like exactly how life began with complete proof, or the complete history of evolution from "bacteria to the blue whale") "No, not exactly. But the evidenced points to ... " "Enough! You don't know, therefore GOD!!!!!!" Even supposedly "scientific" ID resorts immediately to that "God of the Gaps".

Of course, the problem with that puny "God of the Gaps" is that it must forever hide in the shadows which are the gaps in our knowledge. Hide from what? From the Light of Knowledge, from our knowledge of how the universe does actually work.

So what is the future for that "God of the Gaps"? Eternal terror as the growth of human knowledge inexorably closes those gaps in human knowledge which are that puny god's only abode.

The other unpleasant aspect of creationists' "God of the Gaps" is its true title: The God of Ignorance. This god has to hide in the gaps. What are those gaps? Our ignorance. Why must that god hide, what is it hiding from? It is hiding from knowledge. So as creationists worship their "God of the Gaps", their God of Ignorance, they embrace ignorance and disdain knowledge, reality.

An alternative is offered by physicist Dr. Allan H. Harvey (AKA "Steam Doc", since he specialized in the physics of water), a practicing mainstream Christian active in his church and its religious education activities. The list of his essays are at http://steamdoc.itgo.com/writings.htm. In his essay, Science and Christian Apologetics (one of two or three in which he addresses the false "God of the Gaps" theology), he presents the alternative of thinking of God as "Sovereign Over Nature":

quote:

Maybe my most important message today is that this "God of the Gaps" theology is wrong. The reason it's wrong is that [u]God is sovereign over nature[/u]. (Take-home point #2) The Bible tells us that everything that exists is upheld by God's power. God isn't just in the gaps, he's the creator and sustainer of the whole fabric of creation, including the things we call "natural." So what does God's sovereignty over nature mean for our apologetics? It means that science isn't any threat to Christianity. Scientific results don't count as points against God, they're just uncovering how God did things. It means that if somebody has the idea that some scientific explanation (evolution or whatever) has eliminated God, the [u]wrong[/u] thing to do is to argue against the science that's defending the God of the Gaps and it's a losing strategy (unfortunately, it's the strategy of a lot of Christians). The [u]right[/u] thing to do is to remember that God is sovereign over nature, that the atheist argument that natural explanations mean God is absent isn't science, it's completely unjustified philosophy. We can tell people that natural explanations may eliminate the God of the Gaps, but they don't eliminate the Christian God.

So then creation's grave and fatal mistake is the same of sadly too many other creationists: they have chosen to believe in the wrong god, in their "God of the Gaps" instead of in the Sovereign over Nature.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 762 by RAZD, posted 10-08-2018 2:05 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

    
creation
Member
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 764 of 944 (841188)
10-09-2018 12:27 AM
Reply to: Message 762 by RAZD
10-08-2018 2:05 PM


Re: Voyager 1 enters new space
Voyager is not even one light day away!!! Yet you make claims for billions of light years away!!!!!!!!?

The bible makes more sense if your old age models and stellar evolution stuff is wrong. Since you cannot prove what time is like in the far universe you are defeated.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 762 by RAZD, posted 10-08-2018 2:05 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 770 by Larni, posted 10-09-2018 2:26 AM creation has not yet responded
 Message 771 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-09-2018 2:27 AM creation has not yet responded
 Message 773 by Larni, posted 10-09-2018 3:33 AM creation has not yet responded
 Message 774 by RAZD, posted 10-09-2018 9:36 AM creation has responded

    
creation
Member
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 765 of 944 (841189)
10-09-2018 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 761 by Tanypteryx
10-08-2018 12:50 PM


Re: The Win-Win situation for Science
What you see here in the fishbowl is what you see. It is real...here. If time were not the same that would wreak bloody havok on your models though. Of course.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 761 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-08-2018 12:50 PM Tanypteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 768 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-09-2018 2:16 AM creation has not yet responded

    
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