Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,913 Year: 4,170/9,624 Month: 1,041/974 Week: 368/286 Day: 11/13 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Greater Miracle
Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 12 of 199 (506846)
04-29-2009 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Percy
04-29-2009 7:20 AM


Not So Simple.......?
But I think all of us hold many contradictory beliefs.
Yep. And I think your example of the inflated opinion we each have of our own abilities shaping our destinies is a good example of this.
So how do we deal with the contradictory thinking that all of us are heir to when it is displayed by Christians in discussions here regarding matters relevant to the debate? I notice we didn't have any luck talking RAZD, presumably one of our own, out of his special pleading arguments in the recently concluded Pink Unicorn discussion. How can we think we'd have any better luck with Christians? Contradictory thinking again?
Whilst the example you gave of the resurrection etc. is more extreme and thus "obvious" I think that the argument of "simplicity" or "least miraculous" is not so clear cut in many other cases.
Far be it for me to speak for RAZD (I am not sure he would appreciate that from me) but it could be argued that the simplest explanation for perceived experiences of the supernatural is to accept that the supernatural exists.
Likewise those who believe in God (without necessarily being absolute biblical literalists) might (and I think I have seen this argument here at EvC from the likes of Rob and Iano) well make the claim that God is simplicity and that God is by some sort of definition the simplest and least miraculous argument.
Don't get me wrong. I am not putting forward these positions. There are numerous flaws I would be happy to point out to anyone who did want to go down that route.
My point is that the theistic position is not always able to be so trivially dismissed if the person holding that position is willing and able to reshape the argument into the whole area of what is meant by "simplest" or "least miraculous". These are arguably subjective terms that open the gates to valid debate on these issues.
Factor in this potential complexity of showing why these theistic positions are requiring of greater "complexity" or "miraculousness" in some sort of objective terms and combine this with the ability of us all to self contradict anyway and you end up with a position that really takes some dismantling. A position strong enough that even those who are obviously intelligent are able to retain whilst clinging onto the idea that it is intellectually justified.
In summary - All I am saying is that if the argument were as simple as you seem to be suggesting there would be very little debate left to have. By adding some extra layers of argument on top I can see how even intelligent theists can convince themselves that the argument of "least miraculous" applies perfectly to their beliefs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Percy, posted 04-29-2009 7:20 AM Percy has not replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 188 of 199 (509346)
05-20-2009 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by GDR
05-20-2009 5:00 PM


GDR writes:
I see no reason to believe there is nothing but the natural, so until I am proven wrong, I continue in my live
Well OK. But whilst the natural is evidenced the supernatural is not.
Thus any belief in things which are not natural does actually require faith.
GDR writes:
This is not faith, it is exactly the opposite.
Well only if you ignore any concept of evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by GDR, posted 05-20-2009 5:00 PM GDR has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024