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Author Topic:   The Greater Miracle
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2136 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 74 of 199 (508017)
05-09-2009 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by GDR
05-08-2009 9:01 PM


Creationists are anti-science
I have no argument with any branch of science and frankly I'm even inclined to view science as a theological pursuit, in that through it we can learn about the creator by learning about the creation.
Viewing science as a way to learn about the creator is fine, as long as you are following the scientific method when you do science. Creationists tend to be anti-science because they place scripture or the bible as higher forms of knowledge.
You can't have it both ways; either you follow the empirical evidence wherever it leads, using the scientific method, or you follow other forms of "knowledge." And those forms are almost always non-empirical and non-verifiable. Most resolve back into history to "trust me" at some point. You wouldn't buy a used car on "trust me" would you?
I just disagree with you on the idea that the only evidence that is to be considered is scientific.
That's the rub, eh? What evidence do you feel is worth considering, and how do you determine that?
From the following list, which would you trust, and why?
    What it comes down to is you can decide among the various claims by empirical evidence, and using the scientific method. If you choose to ignore empirical evidence, and to ignore the scientific method, you can't claim to be doing science. You are in fact doing just the opposite; you are, in fact, anti-science.
    Creationists normally bristle at being called anti-science, but the evidence shows clearly that they reject the scientific method and scientific evidence when those contradict their chosen beliefs.
    If that isn't anti-science I don't know what is.
    And here's more evidence: the AnswersinGenesis Statement of Faith (first part only):
    See any science in there? Anywhere?
    No, you don't. What you see is scripture and the bible being placed above empirical evidence and the scientific method--no matter what that evidence may be.
    That's anti-science in anybody's book.

    Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 71 by GDR, posted 05-08-2009 9:01 PM GDR has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 75 by GDR, posted 05-10-2009 2:19 AM Coyote has not replied

      
    Coyote
    Member (Idle past 2136 days)
    Posts: 6117
    Joined: 01-12-2008


    Message 89 of 199 (508148)
    05-10-2009 10:12 PM
    Reply to: Message 85 by GDR
    05-10-2009 7:10 PM


    World view
    We all have a world view. That world view is based on faith, whether it be Atheism, Christianity, Islam, Wiccan or whatever else we choose. We live our lives in the knowledge that our world view cannot be tested objectively. We all have a world view that in the end is subjective.
    That would be false.
    Your idea of a world view is influenced by your religious beliefs so that you assume everyone else's world view is based on such beliefs. This is not the case.
    You should not assume everyone else shares the same mode of world view that you do. For many, their world view is based on verifiable evidence. This is exactly the opposite of a world view based on religion.

    Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 85 by GDR, posted 05-10-2009 7:10 PM GDR has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 91 by GDR, posted 05-11-2009 12:44 AM Coyote has replied

      
    Coyote
    Member (Idle past 2136 days)
    Posts: 6117
    Joined: 01-12-2008


    Message 93 of 199 (508158)
    05-11-2009 1:04 AM
    Reply to: Message 91 by GDR
    05-11-2009 12:44 AM


    Re: World view
    And what verifiable evidence would that be? How do you verify what isn't verifiable. Can you verify that the material world is all that there is? You just believe it. You can't verify it, so you take it on faith.
    Correct, but backwards.
    We can verify that the natural world exists, and observe a great many of the details concerning it, but there is no evidence of supernatural beings. That one would have to take on faith, not the existence or details of the natural world.
    By the way, I don't assume that everyone holds the same world view that I do.
    The phrasing of your answers show that you do indeed make assumptions about what those who do not hold your world view must be doing.
    You believe that those who have a naturalist world view have to take that on faith; however the reality is just the opposite. We can observe and verify the natural world. What we would have to take on faith is the existence of deities that meddle in worldly affairs, and for those deities there is no evidence.
    That is what many of us do not accept on faith, or on someone's "trust me!" (You wouldn't buy a used car from those "Trust me!" folks, why accept their claims about visions, "divine" revelations, and all the rest?)

    Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 91 by GDR, posted 05-11-2009 12:44 AM GDR has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 94 by GDR, posted 05-11-2009 1:35 AM Coyote has replied

      
    Coyote
    Member (Idle past 2136 days)
    Posts: 6117
    Joined: 01-12-2008


    Message 97 of 199 (508203)
    05-11-2009 10:43 AM
    Reply to: Message 94 by GDR
    05-11-2009 1:35 AM


    Re: World view
    Sure you can verify the natural world, or at least many aspects of it but you can't verify that the so-called natural world is all that there is.
    If that's the best evidence you can come up with for the existence of the supernatural and various deities, then I think my point is made.

    Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 94 by GDR, posted 05-11-2009 1:35 AM GDR has not replied

      
    Coyote
    Member (Idle past 2136 days)
    Posts: 6117
    Joined: 01-12-2008


    Message 171 of 199 (509130)
    05-18-2009 10:11 PM
    Reply to: Message 170 by GDR
    05-18-2009 9:21 PM


    On science
    Science may some day come up with an answer of how basic ingredients might combine to form a cell, but I would still believe that it would require an initial intelligence to start the process.
    What you would choose to believe, in the face of contradictory evidence, says more about you than it does about science.
    I see all of science as being a form of theological endeavour in that it is working at finding out what God has created.
    Again, you are trying to impose your religious belief on science.
    Science and religion are opposites. Science follows the data wherever it leads, even if it contradicts someone's religious belief.
    Religious belief is something that is always based on "Trust me!"
    That "Trust me!" can come in the form of "divine" revelation, scripture, and the like, but it all resolves in the end to some person saying "Trust me!"
    You wouldn't want to buy a used car from such a questionable source, now would you?

    Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 170 by GDR, posted 05-18-2009 9:21 PM GDR has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 172 by GDR, posted 05-18-2009 10:29 PM Coyote has replied

      
    Coyote
    Member (Idle past 2136 days)
    Posts: 6117
    Joined: 01-12-2008


    Message 173 of 199 (509137)
    05-18-2009 11:37 PM
    Reply to: Message 172 by GDR
    05-18-2009 10:29 PM


    Re: On science
    Coyote writes:
    That "Trust me!" can come in the form of "divine" revelation, scripture, and the like, but it all resolves in the end to some person saying "Trust me!"
    Who would that person be? I think it would be more along the lines of convince me. In the end though this stuff has been gone over so many times that I don't see a lot of point in rehashing it all again.
    Who? Let's start with Moses and/or his coauthors/predecessors and the contemporary oral tradition which he and/or they may or may not have written down.
    Would you buy used snake oil from such a pitchman today? Even when they said, "Trust me!"?

    Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 172 by GDR, posted 05-18-2009 10:29 PM GDR has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 174 by GDR, posted 05-19-2009 12:59 AM Coyote has not replied

      
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