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Author Topic:   Bring science to the Bible (Bring science to the Church)
SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 3275 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 31 of 59 (313503)
05-19-2006 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by jar
05-18-2006 7:40 PM


Good Stuff Jar
The Clergy Project really nails it.

That's always been one of the things I can't understand about fundamentalism.

You would think that to many christians science would be an almost holy endeavour. I mean, what better way to get close to god and find out more about him than to study his creation using the gifts he gave you.

Heck, if I was a believer I would put much more stock in a god with the brilliance to design a system like evolution than one who uses talking snakes to trick people


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 5526
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 32 of 59 (313520)
05-19-2006 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
05-19-2006 11:01 AM


Re: Good Stuff Jar
You would think that to many christians science would be an almost holy endeavour.

To many Christians, it is.
This message is a reply to:
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freelancer
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 59 (313530)
05-19-2006 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
05-19-2006 10:58 AM


too easy? - too false perhaps.
quote:
There was no worldwide flood in recorded human history.

This is where I call bull on your ignorance. Look at the strata layers. Look at the Grand Canyon. Look at the fossils. Look at the fact that every culture in the world has a worldwide flood story.

Strata layers - it's scientifically impossible for a noticable line in layers to appear by "millions of years of buildup"

Grand Canyon - If the Grand Canyon were "eroded over millions of years" it would be 15 times bigger. And look at the fact that at Mt. St. Helens a 1/12 size GC was created in 24 hours.

Fossils - fossils cannot be created by millions of year of buildup - they would rot away before they got covered. couple that with the fact that there ate massive fossil grave yards and your conclusion must be that something huge burried them nearly instantly.

Did you know that every culture has a worldwide flood story? Even the cultures that had no exposiure to the Bible do. And they all say the same basic thing. "Eight people were told by god or gods to buld a boat because he was going to flood the whole world."


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EZscience
Member (Idle past 2595 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 34 of 59 (313532)
05-19-2006 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by freelancer
05-18-2006 8:17 PM


freelancer writes:

One piece of evidence that proves that something in the Bible is wrong?

How about the logistical conundrum of Noah *finding* two of every species on the earth, *collecting* pairs of them *alive*, having a boat big enough to house them all - separately so the predators wouldn't eat the herbivores etc. - *knowing* enough about the biology of each to keep every one alive for 40 days and nights. And what would he have used to feed them all - especially the predators that require live food?

Such a feat would seem impossible even with today's advanced technology. We haven't even *discovered* all the species yet, for goodness sake, let alone learned how to keep them all alive in captivity. As someone who regularly struggles with the problems of rearing of relatively simple insect species, this 'floating zoo' fairy tale has to be the most biologically ludicrous story in the entire bible. And even if it were possible, we know enough about population biology to realize that NO POPULATION OF HIGHER ANIMAL COULD POSSIBLY BE RE-STARTED WITH ONLY TWO INDIVIDUALS. That's an impossibly small bottleneck for any population to survive and inbreeding depression would finish off just about all sexual species.
There is precious little in the bible that makes any sense in the light of what is currently known about biology, so I suggest that if you actually take a biology course you will find plenty more inconsistencies for yourself.


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EZscience
Member (Idle past 2595 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 35 of 59 (313535)
05-19-2006 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by freelancer
05-19-2006 12:30 PM


Re: too easy? - too false perhaps.
You are simply parroting unsubstantiated jibberish from creationist 'disinformation' websites to protect your precious myth.
You would spurn the conclusions of at least four independent scientific disciplines? Have you no higher education whatsoever?
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AdminTL
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 59 (313537)
05-19-2006 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by freelancer
05-19-2006 12:30 PM


Let's keep this on topic
Freelance, you've been told repeatedly to take your arguments to an appropriate thread. This is not a "who's a true Christian" nor "evidence for evolution" thread. There are plenty of those out there. This is the 2nd warning from an Admin.

STOP

To the others, you need to avoid being goaded into continuing Freelance's hijacking of this thread.


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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 1353 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 37 of 59 (313538)
05-19-2006 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by freelancer
05-19-2006 12:30 PM


Re: too easy? - too false perhaps.
Hi Freelance,

One of the things about this forum is that we try to keep topics reasonably focused around here. You may have seen something about the forum guidelines on your way though registration.

Each topic gets is own thread and there are many threads around about various facts of the Bible and how they are wrong or not. What you could do is find one of those threads by browsing through the various forums or start a new thread on a particular fact that gets challanced.

In this case, the flood, there is a whole series of thread dealing with it. Geology and the Great Flood Forum

Might I recommend this thread Long build up of Sediments. You can pick up where Faith left of trying to convince professional and amature geologists that they don't understand anything about rocks. If you don't want to get caught up in all the mess that was that thread then start a new one. It might be fun to start fresh.

I look forward to talking about the flood with you in the appropriate thread. It is certainly one of the easiest things to show about the Bible that is factually incorrect. I say this as a Christian. I hope you enjoy your stay here and please don't get banned. We need more people from your side of the fence to make this place interesting.


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)
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truthlover
Member (Idle past 1500 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 38 of 59 (313540)
05-19-2006 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by mastertrell
05-18-2006 2:25 PM


Another attempt at an on topic post
Mastertrell,

If Christians are so eager to put their bible up to science as proof of their theory, then I say it is science's duty to go into the bible and prove and disprove anything it can.

Actually, this has been being done for 200 years or more. The original hypothesis of science in Europe and America was that the Bible was accurate history. Science has changed directions, because the evidence has led them that way.

I think it is simple honesty to teach science and history as it happened. Scientists and historians have been amassing evidence of what happened in our world quite successfully these last few centuries. We should report what they found, because it has already done the "proving" and "disproving" that you request in your OP.


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Quetzal
Member (Idle past 3313 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 39 of 59 (313544)
05-19-2006 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by EZscience
05-19-2006 12:34 PM


It isn't just that. Assuming the logistics of the thing could be managed somehow (stasis boxes, only babies, or whatever ad hoc explanation is the flavor du jour), we still have the problem of how Noah & co. survived the aftermath. Remember, the Fludists claim that all the organisms that have ever lived on Earth - from 3.5 gyo stromatolite-forming bacteria to glyptodonts - all lived contemporaneously. If they were all killed at one fell swoop in a global flood, can you imagine the sheer volume of carrion that would be left when the waters subsided? We're talking several kilometers deep, here. The stench alone of all those putrefying corpses would have killed anything living, and poisoned the atmosphere for thousands of years. The ark didn't land on a mountain, it landed on a pile of rotting bodies.

Wouldn't that be an interesting piece of discussion to bring into a church?

Edited by Quetzal, : speling and topic relevance


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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3511
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 40 of 59 (313561)
05-19-2006 1:46 PM


It has happened at a church I attended
Back in message 7 of the PNT version I said:

Adminnemooseus writes:

I think that this has the makings of a good topic, but...
... my admin instincts tell me it could easily turn into a disaster area topic.

Also there, in message 4, I said:

Adminnemooseus writes:

Of course, we can't force science education into churches, but perhaps there could be an organized program to do such by the churches invitation?

Somewhere back in the late 1970's or 1980's, a geology professor from the University of Minnesota, Duluth, made a guest appearance at the Lutheran church (ALC synod I believe) to speak on evolution. This appearance was made part of the regular church service. This professor is also a professed Christian (and I have no reason to doubt his faith) and is one that I had several classes from in route to my now very rusty geology degree.

I have no idea how this visit was arranged, but apparently he was doing a tour of the local churches that were willing to permit his presentation. I also now have no recollection of his presentations content. I do vaguely recall that there was no follow up discussion - Either the congregation accepted the content, or perhaps they just didn't care one way or the other.

I expected this topic to include some variety of the separation of church and state issue. I also expected that there would be discussion of what churches would and would not be willing to host such a presentation. Perhaps I can, even at this late date, get back to this professor and find out if he gave his talk at any of the more fundamentalist churches in the area.

Moose


Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.

"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose


    
freelancer
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 59 (313579)
05-19-2006 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by AdminTL
05-19-2006 12:42 PM


Re: Let's keep this on topic
I apologize, I was meerly trying to anwser questions.
This message is a reply to:
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AlienInvader
Member (Idle past 2366 days)
Posts: 48
From: MD
Joined: 07-07-2006


Message 42 of 59 (329861)
07-08-2006 12:25 PM


inerrancy doctrine
... if you're looking fallacies in the bible, farrel till seems to do a fairly good job of finding inherent contradictions within scripture itself.

http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/index.shtml

well, that's if what he writes is to be trusted... the references seem to be accurate but i can't say that i've read the bible cover to cover, so he might be taking things out of context; i doubt it but... yeah... and most of it is numerical


  
lfen
Member (Idle past 2119 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 43 of 59 (329883)
07-08-2006 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by freelancer
05-18-2006 6:44 PM


How to Read the Bible by Marc Zvi Brettler
I strongly recommend this book:

How to Read the Bible by Marc Zvi Brettler. He has a Ph.D. in Bible studies and teaches at Brandeis University. The book is filled with citations but is written in a very readable (non academic)style. It was published in 2005 and I found it a week ago in the new book section in my library and have been reading it.

This guy knows the Bible in Hebrew as well as the history of the period and really opens up a lot of various aspects of what is going on at the time and how what was written interacts with that.

I give this book my highest recommendation for anyone interested in the Bible and Near Eastern History issue.

lfen


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lfen
Member (Idle past 2119 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 44 of 59 (329886)
07-08-2006 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
05-19-2006 10:58 AM


Re: too easy
There was no worldwide flood in recorded human history.

And an understatement to be sure, no evidence of worldwide flood found for a long time before that!

But the problem is people are free to teach and believe whatever nonsense they want: that the earth is hollow, that there are human vampires that are undead (I don't mean weird goths who drink a little blood for mental reasons), or that grey alliens are abducting people and giving them rectal exams.

I mean I'd love to go to all these people and set them straight but you know any efforts in that direction would just more deeply convinced them of a conspiracy. The thing about the paranoid capacity of the human brain is that it can fit anything into a system if it's motivated enough.

After all science is just Satan's attempt to hide the truth revealed in the Bible don't cha know. All that evidence was just dummied up by the devil to deceive those who don't have spiritual sense. Once you believe that then it's easy to believe all the other stuff. And people routinely believe just those sorts of things.

In fact it appears much easier for many humans to believe that sort of stuff than it is to believe that the square root of 2 is irrational, or that nothing can go faster than the speed of light. Those are things we have very good evidence for but it's hard for the brain to grasp. Some how allien rectal exams or talking snakes or a world wide flood seems quite reasonable to many people.

lfen


This message is a reply to:
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lfen
Member (Idle past 2119 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 45 of 59 (329887)
07-08-2006 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by freelancer
05-19-2006 12:30 PM


Re: too easy? - too false perhaps.
Did you know that every culture has a worldwide flood story? Even the cultures that had no exposiure to the Bible do. And they all say the same basic thing. "Eight people were told by god or gods to buld a boat because he was going to flood the whole world."

I still don't know that. You need to cite real scholarship showing that the Chinese, the Egyptians, Australian Bush people, and Mayans have such stories with such details.

You know people out there are teaching things that don't stand up. They haven't done the research and probably don't care to. They are telling you fantasies, stories, wishful thinking. It's takes more than saying it. You have to have solid citations by scholars in the respective fields, not stuff made up by those evangelizing and recruiting to their religion. You are being taken, duped, and misled.

lfen

Edited by lfen, : had left out the word "know" in the first sentences. I inserted it.


This message is a reply to:
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