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Author Topic:   Which religion's creation story should be taught?
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6121
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 5.8


(1)
Message 241 of 331 (589513)
11-03-2010 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by JRTjr
11-03-2010 1:57 AM


JRTjr writes:

quote:
Should we yank the Big Bang theory? If the universe had a beginning it had a beginner. That sounds an awful lot like creationism to me.

Huh? That makes no sense.

First, you don't seem to understand what the Big Bang is. It is not a description of the creation of the universe. Instead, it is a description of the expansion of the universe. The creation of the universe happened before the Big Bang.

Second, where is your evidence that "if the universe had a beginning, it had a beginner"? That is not accepted as a given.

Third, we can directly observe the effects of the Big Bang. That's why it exists as a theory.

quote:
Or maybe we should not teach about DNA. DNA is passed on from parent to child and insures that the child will be of the same species as the parents. (Unless altered by mankind) DNA is also an information rich system; Information transmission is the hallmark of intelligence; sounds an awful lot like a Creator to me.

Huh? That makes no sense.

First, you don't seem to understand what DNA is. It does not "insure that the child will be of the same species as the parents." In fact, given all our observations of DNA, it never remains stable but rather always mutates from generation to generation, guaranteeing the creation of new species. That's why we have seen speciation happen right in front of our eyes both in the lab and in the wild.

Second, DNA is not an "information rich system." And "information transmission" certainly isn't any sign of intelligence.

By your logic, your parents are gods. Surely that isn't your argument, is it?

quote:
I believe Science should only be restrained by Facts, and Evidence. Not by what someone believes or wants to accept.

Indeed.

That's why creationism isn't taught in science class: It has no facts or evidence.

That's why evolution is taught in science class: It is based solely upon facts and evidence.

quote:
If there is good and strong evidence to support a hypothesis, why should it be held back from our students?

It shouldn't.

So tell you what: Every year we'll do a survey of all the biology journals to examine how many articles support creationism and how many support evolution. Would you accept that? After all, if creationism had "good and strong evidence" to support it, then surely it could survive peer review and make it into the journals, yes?

Would you accept that?


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by JRTjr, posted 11-03-2010 1:57 AM JRTjr has responded

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15948
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 242 of 331 (589517)
11-03-2010 4:31 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by JRTjr
11-03-2010 1:08 AM


Re: Myths, Legends, Science??
So, just because something is a myth, does that automatically disqualify it for scientific investigation?

No. It disqualifies it from being taught as a fact to children until scientific investigation has shown that it is not a myth.

Incidentally, most if not all of your examples are wrong.

And, how about the Creation account that has evidence to support it.

How about the pig with beautiful silver wings?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by JRTjr, posted 11-03-2010 1:08 AM JRTjr has acknowledged this reply

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3943
From: UK
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 243 of 331 (589525)
11-03-2010 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by JRTjr
11-02-2010 9:44 PM


Re: Federal Government document!?!?!?!?
whom risked life and limb to free us from the oppression of England,

Or more accurately, so they could be tax evaders.

You guys are as big a criminals as Aussies.

Archeological evidence supports the fact that, before life appeared on Earth, the Earth was both clothed in darkness, and that water covered the whole face of the planet.

Archeological evidence supports the earth was formed before the sun?

Really?

Really?

Edited by Larni, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Larni
Member
Posts: 3943
From: UK
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 244 of 331 (589526)
11-03-2010 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by JRTjr
11-02-2010 9:44 PM


Re: Federal Government document!?!?!?!?
double post.....stupid slow computers.

Edited by Larni, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 245 of 331 (589538)
11-03-2010 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by Larni
11-03-2010 8:12 AM


Re: Federal Government document!?!?!?!?
Larni writes:

Archeological evidence supports the earth was formed before the sun?

Really?

Really?

Yes. The Dead Sea Scrolls include fragments of Genesis and commentary on Genesis.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 29183
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 246 of 331 (589547)
11-03-2010 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by JRTjr
11-03-2010 1:57 AM


Re: Atheism!?!?
First, instead of actually replying to the current state of the conversation you are simply going back and making assertions that have been addressed and refuted as though they were never addressed.

Classic Creationist tactic.

But to address your rehash, something beginning does not mean that there was a beginner. You are simply wrong there.

DNA is no more an information rich system than any other chemical molecule or reaction. Chemical reactions are not a sign of intelligence. Again, you are simply wrong.

I believe Science should only be restrained by Facts, and Evidence. Not by what someone believes or wants to accept.

If there is good and strong evidence to support a hypothesis, why should it be held back from our students?

You have not provided any evidence to support any other hypothesis; there is no Creation model to teach.

and now to catch you up on the conversation....

quote:
I'm sorry but does ANYTHING in your post have to do with what the Genesis 1 account actually says, or with the mutually exclusive account in Genesis 2&3?

and again, what does that have to do with the topic or the issues raised in Message 234

quote:
The thread begins with an assumption that religious creation myths can be taught.

quote:
If we are to teach creation in public schools, which creation story should we teach? Do we teach Genesis? If so which version of Genesis? Do we teach the story of the Norse gods carving the world from the bones of giants? Or the Hindu belief that the world is God's dream? Heck, even Christians don't agree on a literal six-day creation less than 10'000 years ago or Genesis as metaphor for divinely inspired evolution...

I say evolution belongs in the science classroom and creation belongs in comparative religion...


So the question is "Which religions creation myths should be taught?"

The intent of the Founding Fathers is of course, irrelevant since we are talking about what should be taught today. For example we understand that the intent of the Founding Fathers was that a slave would be considered three fifths of a freeman. Even if the intent of the Founding Fathers was that the Christian Creation myths should be taught, we are dealing with today.

The OP also specifies that creation myths should be in a comparative religion class, and so the issue of separation of Church and State is not an issue.

So the question is, which Creation Myths should be taught? Should we include both of the Christian Creation myths and which other myths should be included to fill the coursework?


JRTjr writes:

Yes, they could teach it that way if they were completely incompetent, and had done no research; or simply chose to lie outright about the Biblical account of creation.

Actually, looking at what YOU propose as compared to what is actually in Genesis 1 and Genesis 2&3 I would let the audience decide which version is more likely a lie.



Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by JRTjr, posted 11-03-2010 1:57 AM JRTjr has responded

Replies to this message:
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frako
Member
Posts: 2702
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 247 of 331 (589658)
11-03-2010 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by NoNukes
11-03-2010 9:55 AM


Re: Federal Government document!?!?!?!?
Yes. The Dead Sea Scrolls include fragments of Genesis and commentary on Genesis

Um let me get this striaight you are saying that archeological evidence suports that the world was formed before the sun cause they found some scrolls that say so. Is this realy what you are trying to say? Or am i reading something wrong


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 248 of 331 (589673)
11-03-2010 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by frako
11-03-2010 5:53 PM


Dead Sea Scrolls
frako writes:

Um let me get this striaight you are saying that archeological evidence suports that the world was formed before the sun cause they found some scrolls that say so.

Yes, that's what I'm saying

I was not expecting to be taken seriously, but I don't know what other kind of archaelogical evidence might show some event that happened before humans existed.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by frako, posted 11-03-2010 5:53 PM frako has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by frako, posted 11-03-2010 7:19 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2702
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 249 of 331 (589674)
11-03-2010 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by NoNukes
11-03-2010 7:07 PM


Re: Dead Sea Scrolls
Yes, that's what I'm saying

I was not expecting to be taken seriously, but I don't know what other kind of archaelogical evidence might show some event that happened before humans existed.

um an aincent alien data storage device


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 Message 248 by NoNukes, posted 11-03-2010 7:07 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
JRTjr
Member (Idle past 1804 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 250 of 331 (589699)
11-03-2010 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by Omnivorous
10-01-2010 1:14 PM


Old Earth Creationism is working in Sunday Schools!?!?
Dear Omnivorous,

Yes, Old Earth Creationism is working in Sunday Schools; vary well; thanks for asking.

However, the focus of this string is If we are to teach creation in public schools, which creation story should we teach?

Hope to hear from you again soon,
JRTjr


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Replies to this message:
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JRTjr
Member (Idle past 1804 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 251 of 331 (589701)
11-03-2010 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by bluegenes
10-01-2010 1:33 PM


Re: Atheism!?!? + Jainism
Dear Bluegenes,

Bluegenes writes:

{Atheists} also yours.

Not mine, I did not come up with the definition; nor did I tell them what to say or think. I simply quoted what they themselves have said. I youre not happy with there definitions or ideas Im sure they would not mind you giving them your two cense.

Bluegenes writes:

The "divine foot" is not kept out of the door a priori. It is not included in science because no such thing has ever been observed directly or indirectly.

Well, thats a find opinion; if you have any facts to discus, I would love to correspond with you.

Hope to hear from you soon,
JRTjr


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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JRTjr
Member (Idle past 1804 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 252 of 331 (589702)
11-03-2010 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Dr Adequate
10-01-2010 1:40 PM


Conversation all rapped up!?!?
Dear Dr Adequate,

Can you provide some context for your quote?
Of course not...

I love when someone asks me a question and, presuming I cant answer it myself, proceed to answer it for me.

Since you seam to have this conversation all rapped up; Ill let you do both sides of it.

Enjoy ;-},
JRTjr


This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-01-2010 1:40 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-04-2010 6:49 AM JRTjr has not yet responded

    
JRTjr
Member (Idle past 1804 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 253 of 331 (589703)
11-03-2010 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by Coragyps
10-01-2010 2:12 PM


Re: The religion of Atheism !?!?!?
Dear Coragyps,

Coragyps writes:

Start us a new thread to present that "proof," {That Macro-Evolution has been disproved} JRT. I seem to have missed it.

Love to, Ill propose it and then shoot off an e-mail to you when/if it gets approved.

Hope to see you there,
JRTjr


This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Coragyps, posted 10-01-2010 2:12 PM Coragyps has not yet responded

    
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 1688 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 254 of 331 (589704)
11-03-2010 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by NoNukes
11-03-2010 9:55 AM


Re: Federal Government document!?!?!?!?
Yes. The Dead Sea Scrolls include fragments of Genesis and commentary on Genesis.

All that is evidence of is what the writers believed, not evidence of anything real.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


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frako
Member
Posts: 2702
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 255 of 331 (589732)
11-04-2010 5:56 AM
Reply to: Message 250 by JRTjr
11-03-2010 9:25 PM


Re: Old Earth Creationism is working in Sunday Schools!?!?
However, the focus of this string is If we are to teach creation in public schools, which creation story should we teach?

all of them preferably in history classes or none of them and stick to science.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by JRTjr, posted 11-03-2010 9:25 PM JRTjr has acknowledged this reply

    
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