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Author Topic:   Are Uranium Halos the best evidence of (a) an old earth AND (b) constant physics?
Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15798
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


(3)
Message 121 of 137 (667740)
07-11-2012 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by foreveryoung
07-11-2012 4:58 PM


Re: bump for foreveryoung
I have read and understand physics as well as the next guy reasonable read in the sciences.

Well, only if the next guy isn't a physicist.

This theory explains the evidence as good as current theories do.

Well, no. 'Cos of not being a theory. As I said, you don't have a theory. What you have is a patronizing description of the theory that you'd like to have watered down for the benefit of the layman.

It's like the explanation of General Relativity as: "Well, imagine space-time as a rubber sheet which is distorted by the masses placed on it ..." This may be a useful metaphor for someone who knows bugger-all physics, but if that was all that Einstein came up with we'd never have heard of him. The only reason this explanation has any value at all is that having heard it we do have some sort of understanding of the theory that it is a metaphor for.

But you don't have the theory. You just have the pop-science explanation of how you'd talk down to a non-physicist about your theory if you could ever come up with one, which you haven't.

If both theories explain the same set of facts ...

But they don't.

Look, here's my alternative to Maxwell's equations: "The phenomena that we call "electricity" are caused by a basic superposition of momenta in a five-dimensional field, thus bringing about a quantum entanglement that supervenes the rest-mass of so-called "charged" particles in order to bring about a juxtaposition of "charges" which brings about a collapse of the wave-form. This simple observation immediately destroys the Maxwellian dogma in favor of a view that incorporates quantum effects in the context of the Higgs field."

Sounded awful science-y, didn't it? It's also complete nonsense, and the reason that we can tell it's complete nonsense is that it has no predictive power, unlike Maxwell's equations. It does not explain the phenomena as well as Maxwell's equations, because the test of whether something explains things is not whether it gives a layman ignorant of physics the sensation of having had something explained to him, but whether it actually works.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by foreveryoung, posted 07-11-2012 4:58 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15798
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 122 of 137 (667741)
07-11-2012 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by foreveryoung
07-11-2012 4:55 PM


Re: bump for foreveryoung
This all sounds like you guys have your ears plugged and refuse to entertain the notion at all. It is easy to just wave your hands and say things like "it is not theory at all" or " it is just a fantasy made up in your head".

Well, it isn't and it is, respectively, that's the problem with it.

If you show me a giraffe and claim that it's an elephant, then when I point out that it's a giraffe, what are you going to say? "This all sounds like you guys have your ears plugged and refuse to entertain the notion at all."

Well yeah. 'Cos it's a giraffe. Long neck, spots, small ears, no trunk, I know a giraffe when I see one.

The problem with your "theory" is in fact that it's not a theory. That's the big problem with it. This sucks for you and all, but it's not a theory, a giraffe is not an elephant, and pointing out the bleedin' obvious is a mark of being sane rather than being closed-minded.


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jar
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Posts: 28693
From: Texas!!
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Member Rating: 2.6


Message 123 of 137 (667743)
07-11-2012 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by foreveryoung
07-11-2012 4:55 PM


Change leaves evidence
Change leaves evidence.

It really is that simple.

What you need now is to present the evidence that all others can examine that supports the changes you claim to have happened.

Where is the evidence that mass changed?

Where is the evidence that the speed of light changed?

Where is the evidence that Gravity changed?

Where is the evidence that the basic forces changed?

Show us the evidence that the Uranium Halos found at the Oklo reactor were not created 1.7 Billion years ago?

Edited by jar, : fix subtitle


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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foreveryoung
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Posts: 879
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 124 of 137 (667750)
07-11-2012 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by ringo
07-11-2012 5:03 PM


Re: bump for foreveryoung
You want evidence that supports it? Here you go.....action at a distance. Gravity. Mass. The fact that we have all of those things are evidence for my theory.
This message is a reply to:
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foreveryoung
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Posts: 879
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 125 of 137 (667751)
07-11-2012 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by jar
07-11-2012 6:02 PM


Re: Change leaves evidence
Evidence? Missing mass, missing energy, quantum redshifts to name a few.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by jar, posted 07-11-2012 6:02 PM jar has responded

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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15798
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 126 of 137 (667752)
07-11-2012 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by foreveryoung
07-11-2012 7:52 PM


Re: bump for foreveryoung
You want evidence that supports it? Here you go.....action at a distance. Gravity. Mass. The fact that we have all of those things are evidence for my theory.

You mean like the existence of electricity is evidence for my "theory"? After all, I said it explains electricity, and look, electricity exists! You can't dispute that.


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jar
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Posts: 28693
From: Texas!!
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Message 127 of 137 (667753)
07-11-2012 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by foreveryoung
07-11-2012 7:53 PM


Re: Change leaves evidence
Those are simply assertions and not evidence.

What missing mass?

What missing energy?

What quantum redshift?

And how would anyone of those be evidence of the changes you allege happened?

How could they explain the existence of the 1.7 Billion year record of mass and energy being the same as today found in the halos from the Oklo reactor?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by foreveryoung, posted 07-11-2012 7:53 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

  
foreveryoung
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Posts: 879
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 128 of 137 (667763)
07-12-2012 2:33 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Coragyps
07-11-2012 5:26 PM


Re: bump for foreveryoung
Photons already have zero mass. They do not travel at infinite speed.

And you missed the point obviously. I was not typing the fact that atoms would be massless to the idea of infinite speed. The speed of light was infinite because there was no zero point energy fields to interfere with its progress as there is today. This field causes particles to pop in and out of the vacuum. It is those particles of the vacuum that cause the speed of light to be around 300000 meters per second today.

Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given.


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RAZD
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Posts: 18260
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 129 of 137 (667772)
07-12-2012 6:15 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by foreveryoung
07-11-2012 12:32 PM


Re: bump for foreveryoung
Hi foreveryoung,

If the speed of light were the same as today, you would have a point. A changing speed of light was the main issue in the thread I started months ago. Many other constants and particularly rest mass would be affected as well. Jar insisted through the Oklo reactor example and the resulting radiohaloes that a changing mass would show up in the haloes. That is what brings us here today.

I am aware of this, having also been in that other discussion.

The problem is that you change one thing, that results in a number of other changes that must also be made, and each of those changes result in more things that need to be changed, and you end up with a world of illusions.

* I also don't think that this helps you. If you change the mass of the elements to 1/100th this only increases the speed of light by a factor of 10 to keep the energy of the alpha particle the same.

Then we look at this effect on gravity, simplistically with Newton's law first:

G = gmM/d2

Both m and M are now 1/100th of current values so the force of gravity is reduced to 1/10,000 of today's values, and this affects orbits etc etc etc *

I am not sure what "mp" means in the conservation of energy equation you posted. I am sure it must be the mass of the alpha particle. The energy that propels the alpha particle and the daughter isotope away at tremendous speed comes from the missing mass that is realized when you compare the mass of the parent isotope to that of the daughter isotope and the alpha particle.

Correct, for alpha decay. In beta decay it would be the mass of the beta particle (electron), and in gamma decay it would be the mass of the gamma particle.

Of course we are only interested in alpha particles for ring formations.

Just from the equation you gave me, a smaller mass for the parent and daughter products would not show up in a smaller kinetic energy if the speed of light were greater.

And of course to be just exactly the right amount of change so that the energy is mysteriously maintained while everything else in the equation changes.

Apart from that, I would like to know what atomic mechanism is responsible for the missing mass that shows up as kinetic energy in driving away the daughter products?

You'll have to ask one of the physics mavens that one.

Enjoy.

Edited by RAZD, : * to * added by edit


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
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Posts: 18260
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 130 of 137 (667774)
07-12-2012 6:39 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by foreveryoung
07-11-2012 4:55 PM


theory vs hypothesis vs concept
Hi again foreveryoung

Message 110: What is driving the changing speed of light, rest mass, gravitational force, etc.. is a changing zero point energy field. If that field were void of energy, IOW, no field present at all, all atoms would have zero mass and light would travel at infinite speed. Gravity is the simply the drag that field puts on an accelerating particle. Regions of space that exert more gravity than others have more particles in them. This isn't because of some imaginary "mass" we assign to particles. It is because when a particle is jiggled around by that field, it sends out a field all its own. When you combine several of those particle fields together, you have what is seen as the gravitational force.

And atoms would not exist ... in a zero energy field there would be no force to hold the atomic particles together.

To see what a zero energy field would be like consider the end of the universe when thermodynamics has reduced everything to the point that no energy is left. Would the speed of light be infinite then?

This all sounds like you guys have your ears plugged and refuse to entertain the notion at all.

Perhaps because that's all it is? If you have a theory then it is supported by evidence that shows how the theory works and by prediction tests that have been made. Even if you have an hypothesis in science you need to be able to show how it explains the existing evidence.

Before it was tested e = mc2 was just an hypothesis, one that explained the difference between the observed orbit of Mercury and the one calculated by Newton's theory of gravity.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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JonF
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(1)
Message 131 of 137 (667785)
07-12-2012 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by foreveryoung
07-11-2012 4:58 PM


Comment on qualifications
I have read and understand physics as well as the next guy reasonable read in the sciences.

The evidence to date strongly indicates that this is A) a severe exaggeration and B) that your understanding of physics isn't sufficient to allow you to formulate reasonable questions, much less answer them.

Edited by JonF, : subtitle


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Taq
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Message 132 of 137 (667792)
07-12-2012 11:15 AM


Establishing the Models
Before we go too far into Setterfield's ideas, I think it is important to establish whether or not observations are consistent with constant physical forces. Mind you, I am not saying that the observations "prove" unchanging physical constants. Rather, I am asking foreveryoung (or any other creationist) if our observations would be different if constants were in fact constant over the last 13+ billion years.

The problem that I see with the creationist argument is that it boils down to the claim that evidence for changing constants is indistinguishable from a universe with unchanging constants. Specific to this thread, should uranium haloes appear differently today if the laws in the past were the same as today?

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


  
ringo
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Message 133 of 137 (667801)
07-12-2012 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by foreveryoung
07-11-2012 7:52 PM


foreveryoung writes:

You want evidence that supports it? Here you go.....action at a distance. Gravity. Mass. The fact that we have all of those things are evidence for my theory.


First you have to present the theory; all you've presented so far is the introduction. You need to show in detail how your theory explains the evidence. Then you need to show evidence that distinguishes your theory from other theories.
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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15798
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 134 of 137 (667811)
07-12-2012 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by RAZD
07-12-2012 6:39 AM


Re: theory vs hypothesis vs concept
He's talking about zero point energy --- the energy that exists in a vacuum by virtue of the constant production and destruction of virtual particles.
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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15798
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 135 of 137 (667813)
07-12-2012 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by foreveryoung
07-12-2012 2:33 AM


Re: bump for foreveryoung
And you missed the point obviously. I was not typing the fact that atoms would be massless to the idea of infinite speed. The speed of light was infinite because there was no zero point energy fields ...

(1) Why not?

(2) We're not talking here about an area of physics which is poorly understood. This is quantum electrodynamics. How does the energy of the vacuum affect the speed of light?


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