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Author Topic:   What Is A Christian (Remix)
ringo
Member
Posts: 15423
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 61 of 133 (425973)
10-04-2007 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by New Cat's Eye
10-04-2007 4:43 PM


Catholic Scientist writes:

Yeah, that's why I typed believing AND following Jesus.

Following His directions is the same as believing that His directions are the right way to go.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 4:43 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 4:52 PM ringo has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 62 of 133 (425974)
10-04-2007 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by New Cat's Eye
10-04-2007 4:42 PM


Re: On the way
Define "Christian".

Wait, let me guess: "Christian" = a person who is in a Christian club.

Right.

Well, this thread is about what a True Christian is. Not what a Club Christian is. They are different things.

Wrong. The title of the thread is "What Is A Christian (Remix)" and no place in the Op does the word "True" even appear.

So what makes a True Christian? Believing the Creed, right? Not just being a part of the club (which doesn't require actually believing the creed).

Sorry, but being in the club requires that you subscribe to the bylaws, the "I believes".


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 4:42 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 5:00 PM jar has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 133 (425975)
10-04-2007 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by jar
10-04-2007 4:30 PM


Re: Just joining...man this thread moves quick!
Jesus said that the Apostles would do such miracles. And in addition, Jesus never claimed that he did the miracles but rather God working through him.

Yeah. I could see it either way.

Jesus= divine vs fully human; its been discussed elsewhere and is off topic here. I'm just gonna drop it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by jar, posted 10-04-2007 4:30 PM jar has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 133 (425976)
10-04-2007 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by ringo
10-04-2007 4:47 PM


Catholic Scientist writes:

Yeah, that's why I typed believing AND following Jesus.


Following His directions is the same as believing that His directions are the right way to go.

By believing Jesus I meant believing what he said. As in being the Son of God, etc. Not just believing that his direction is the right way to go. Obviously you'd believe it was the right way to go if you were following it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by ringo, posted 10-04-2007 4:47 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by ringo, posted 10-04-2007 5:19 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
petrophysics1
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 133 (425978)
10-04-2007 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by New Cat's Eye
10-04-2007 4:47 PM


Re: Just joining...man this thread moves quick!
What's that part about being the Lord mean?

I know you wish Lord=God. I am not an expert on ancient languages so I can't say, but in English it could be Lord=Lord and nothing more.

You know,I am the Lord of all I survey.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 4:47 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 974 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 66 of 133 (425981)
10-04-2007 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
10-04-2007 8:50 AM


Phat & Jar: how we explain their "Christianity"
In an off topic rant in the Discussion of Moderation thread, Iano made this comment:

Jar is not a Christian. Never has been (but hopefully will be). From Rays perspective (and mine) Jar is a 5th Columnist - and could expect to be (as per type) particularly reviled by those who recognize him for what he is.

There is no rant. If there was then you would not have replied. In reality, Iano has triggered your alarm because what he or she says is perceived to be true.

5th columnism is simply a synonym or variation of "double agent." The concept of double agent has a person feigning loyalty to one entity while seeking its destruction from within. Jar fits the bill perfectly. He argues against the veracity of the Bible tooth and nail. Logically real Christians do the exact opposite.

But since Jar THINKS he is a real Christian we need only to explain his belief about himself: since Judas, according to Jesus (John 6) was a son of the devil from the beginning, he typifies persons who outwardly claim to walk with Christ but are, in fact, like Jesus said, deceived and walking with Satan.

Judas corresponds to Jar and yourself. There is no other explanation as to how persons could think of them self as Christians, but deny His Father created mankind from the clay-like ground, and agree with Richard Dawkins instead. Objective persons know real Christians and real Atheists do not agree on origins of mankind. We believe Richard Dawkins is a real Atheist.

Like Jar, you Phat THINK that God has given you exemption to side with the enemy and their anti-Bible Atheist origin myth. According to the Bible there are no exemptions; you are deceived.

Ray


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 10-04-2007 8:50 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by iano, posted 10-05-2007 4:45 PM Cold Foreign Object has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 133 (425982)
10-04-2007 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by jar
10-04-2007 4:48 PM


Re: On the way
Sorry, but being in the club requires that you subscribe to the bylaws, the "I believes".

No it doesn't. How does it?

How does the club test that you honestly subscribe to the bylaws and are not just saying that you do?

It doesn't.

What are the requirements that you actually subscribe to the bylaws and are not just saying that you do?

There are none.

A non-Christian could be in the club.

Being in the club doesn't make you a Christian. Q.E.D.

Wrong. The title of the thread is "What Is A Christian (Remix)" and no place in the Op does the word "True" even appear.

It doesn't have to. It was implied. Ask Phat.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 10-04-2007 4:48 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by jar, posted 10-04-2007 5:08 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 68 of 133 (425983)
10-04-2007 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by New Cat's Eye
10-04-2007 5:00 PM


Re: On the way
No it doesn't. How does it?

How does the club test that you honestly subscribe to the bylaws and are not just saying that you do?

It doesn't.

What are the requirements that you actually subscribe to the bylaws and are not just saying that you do?

There are none.

A non-Christian could be in the club.

Sorry, but to be in the club all that is needed is that you subscribe to the bylaws and that the club accept that you have done so. If you are a member of the club called "Christians" then you are a "Christian".

I just don't see any other way around it.

There is no way that you can actually test whether someone really believes the "I believes" or simply so asserts.

As to "True Christian" being implied, it just plain ain't there. Now if Phat wants to change it to a discussion of "True Christian" then fine, but don't pretend it was actually the topic.

If you folk want to play the "No True Scotsman" game, then enjoy. I have no time for that.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 5:00 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 5:22 PM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15423
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 69 of 133 (425985)
10-04-2007 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by New Cat's Eye
10-04-2007 4:52 PM


Catholic Scientist writes:

By believing Jesus I meant believing what he said. As in being the Son of God, etc.

We've been through that. We don't know that He said that. We only know that somebody claimed that He said that.

We can follow His instructions about what to do whether the stories about Him are true or not, because His instructions make sense. Loving thy neighbour just works better than constantly fighting with him.

The stories about Him help to clarify who our neighbour is. (Even the Samaritans? :eek: ) They help us to understand that even if we're prodigal, it isn't the end of the world. They show us a way that we know intuitively is "the way" to live.

The stories about Jesus make sense in the same way that Aesop's fables make sense. They don't have to be "true" to be valuable. You don't have to believe that animals can talk to believe what they say.


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 4:52 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 5:31 PM ringo has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 133 (425986)
10-04-2007 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by jar
10-04-2007 5:08 PM


Re: On the way
Sorry, but to be in the club all that is needed is that you subscribe to the bylaws and that the club accept that you have done so. If you are a member of the club called "Christians" then you are a "Christian".

I just don't see any other way around it.

An evil anti-Christian atheist, bent on destoying Christianity, could join the club by simply stating the "I believes".

That person is a non-Christian and they could easily get into the club.

If a non-Christian can be in the club then being in the club doesn't necessarily mean that you are a Christian.

How can you not see that?

There is no way that you can actually test whether someone really believes the "I believes" or simply so asserts.

That's why there could be a non-christian in the club.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by jar, posted 10-04-2007 5:08 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by jar, posted 10-04-2007 5:26 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 71 of 133 (425987)
10-04-2007 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by New Cat's Eye
10-04-2007 5:22 PM


Re: On the way
An evil anti-Christian atheist, bent on destoying Christianity, could join the club by simply stating the "I believes".

If they assert that they believe the bylaws, how can you tell they are an "evil anti-Christian atheist?"

They are still a member in good standing of the club, "Christians."


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 5:22 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 5:33 PM jar has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 72 of 133 (425990)
10-04-2007 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by ringo
10-04-2007 5:19 PM


We can follow His instructions about what to do whether the stories about Him are true or not, because His instructions make sense. Loving thy neighbour just works better than constantly fighting with him.

The stories about Him help to clarify who our neighbour is. (Even the Samaritans? :eek: ) They help us to understand that even if we're prodigal, it isn't the end of the world. They show us a way that we know intuitively is "the way" to live.

That's all fine and dandy, and I've heard it before and it makes sense.

But that doesn't further the discussion on what the minimum requirements are for being a Christian.

The stories about Jesus make sense in the same way that Aesop's fables make sense. They don't have to be "true" to be valuable. You don't have to believe that animals can talk to believe what they say.

But if you don't believe in Jesus as the Son of God, and you just think that those are some good fables, then you're not really a Christian. At least not in my opinion.

Catholic Scientist writes:

By believing Jesus I meant believing what he said. As in being the Son of God, etc.


We've been through that. We don't know that He said that. We only know that somebody claimed that He said that.

I guess it is possible for someone to believe that Jesus was not divine, and just had a good philosphy that is worth following, and still be rightfully considered a Christian.

So know I don't know.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by ringo, posted 10-04-2007 5:19 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by ringo, posted 10-04-2007 5:42 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 133 (425992)
10-04-2007 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by jar
10-04-2007 5:26 PM


Re: On the way
If they assert that they believe the bylaws, how can you tell they are an "evil anti-Christian atheist?"

If they let you in on the secret you could tell.

But my point is more that you can't tell. Simply being in the club is not enough to know that the person is, in fact, a Christian.

They are still a member in good standing of the club, "Christians."

There's more to it than just being a member of the club.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by jar, posted 10-04-2007 5:26 PM jar has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15423
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 74 of 133 (425996)
10-04-2007 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by New Cat's Eye
10-04-2007 5:31 PM


Catholic Scientist writes:

But that doesn't further the discussion on what the minimum requirements are for being a Christian.

Sure it does. The minimum standard is: being "like Christ", like He is portrayed in stories about Him, doing what the character in the stories said we should do.

You're setting the bar waaaay higher than the minimum standard.


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 5:31 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-05-2007 10:57 AM ringo has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 133 (426123)
10-05-2007 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by ringo
10-04-2007 5:42 PM


You're setting the bar waaaay higher than the minimum standard.

I don't think so. I think that in order to be considered a Christian, you have to be a Christian in your own mind. Its something that you consciously are.

The minimum standard is: being "like Christ"

I think that sets the bar too low. With this standard, someone could be a Christian and not even know it. I think you should know that you are a Christian.

For example, Ghandi was Christ-like. Acording to your standard, he would have been a Christian but in reality he was a Hindu and not a Christian.

That right there shows that your standard doesn't work.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by ringo, posted 10-04-2007 5:42 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-05-2007 11:44 AM New Cat's Eye has responded
 Message 77 by ringo, posted 10-05-2007 12:03 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
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