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Author Topic:   The bible and homosexuality
Morte
Member (Idle past 6131 days)
Posts: 140
From: Texas
Joined: 05-03-2004


Message 101 of 323 (105101)
05-03-2004 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by coffee_addict
05-03-2004 5:10 PM


Specific Passages
Lam,
I haven't read the Bible fully myself, so I can't vouch for it, but I believe the main passages from the Bible used to condemn homosexuality can be found here. I came upon this site while doing a debate paper on the issue of Bush's proposed marriage amendment (which I personally am strongly opposed to). Note that the site also refutes most of the arguments, though a lot of it is based on translation arguments that fundamentalists would probably resist fiercely.
If it's correct, the following passages are responsible for the biblical argument:
Genesis 18-19, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. Already pretty much refuted in earlier discussion.
Leviticus 18:22 - "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable." This was one of the ones that can be interpreted to be in reference to temple prostitution.
Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." Happy book, isn't it? Same as above.
Deuteronomy 23:17 - "There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel." This contains the whole qadesh(ah) translation issue that was brought up in the other topic, if I'm not mistaken.
Judges 19; I think berberry already laid waste to this argument in another thread, though I might be mixing up names.
I Kings 14:24 - "There were even male shrine prostitutes in the land; the people engaged in all the detestable practices of the nations the LORD had driven out before the Israelites." Already corrected in the only translation I had time to find, but I believe it was simply another homosexual/male prostitute mixup.
I Kings 15:12 - "He expelled the male shrine prostitutes from the land and got rid of all the idols his fathers had made." Same as above.
Romans 1:26-27 - "(26)Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. (27)In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion." I don't know much about it, I haven't looked into this one that much, but I'd suspect it's taken out of context.
I Corinthians 6:9 - "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders." This one, if I recall, was another iffy translation - it could be interpreted in several ways.
I Timothy 1:9-10 - "(9)Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, (10)For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine..." Still not exactly clear on how this could be used, but closest thing to the *mistranslation* cited on the website that I could find.
Jude 1:7 (sorry if I cited that the wrong way; you get the idea) - "In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire." or in KJV: "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Still rather unclear what strange flesh means; anyway, if Sodom and Gomorrah/Gomorrha are refuted, it seems that there's nothing at all in this passage to link it to the issue.
***
(Note that all passages come from the Bible Search feature at Bible Gateway except Deutoronomy 23:17, which was more correctly translated there. Thought I should use the mistranslation, since it's the one often used in arguments. Also, I Timothy 1:9-10 is under the King James Version rather than the default New International Version)
I just want to re-emphasize that I am strongly against denying gays their rights on a religious basis. Whether the Bible condemns it or not, I don't think the Bible should dictate American legislation - but then, that's a discussion for another topic, I'd say. Just thought I'd bring up those passages since you asked.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by coffee_addict, posted 05-03-2004 5:10 PM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by jar, posted 05-03-2004 10:58 PM Morte has replied
 Message 103 by berberry, posted 05-03-2004 11:17 PM Morte has replied
 Message 106 by coffee_addict, posted 05-04-2004 12:27 AM Morte has not replied

Morte
Member (Idle past 6131 days)
Posts: 140
From: Texas
Joined: 05-03-2004


Message 104 of 323 (105116)
05-04-2004 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by jar
05-03-2004 10:58 PM


Re: Specific Passages
Thanks for the advice. I actually already turned it in quite a while ago without the Bible passages due to the length (there was a limit). I didn't find them as important to the overall issue as other arguments; one of my main assertions was that religion should not be the only basis for legislation anyway, especially that which limits freedom. Therefore, the biblical arguments seemed rather out of place, and I eliminated them before I had a chance to do further research into them. I will look into it for future reference now that you've mentioned it, though.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by jar, posted 05-03-2004 10:58 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by jar, posted 05-04-2004 12:21 AM Morte has not replied

Morte
Member (Idle past 6131 days)
Posts: 140
From: Texas
Joined: 05-03-2004


Message 107 of 323 (105119)
05-04-2004 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by berberry
05-03-2004 11:17 PM


Re: Specific Passages
quote:
It was the Sodom story, not this one.
Ah, my apologies for the mistake - I was rushing at the time and simply saw the offering of the concubine, and it sounded familiar from one of the previous topics. I did have a vague recollection that it was his daughters rather than a concubine, but I thought it might just have been an inconsistency between the versions.
quote:
You've done a fine job with this compilation. I hope we'll be seeing more of you here at evc.
Thanks - I've actually been periodically visiting this forum (though never posting) since around November, so I had a good handle on the forum rules, at least as far as citation and evidence go... Mostly from the helpful examples of what not to do (desdamona's posts, for example).
{Edited to fix spelling.}
[This message has been edited Morte, 05-04-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by berberry, posted 05-03-2004 11:17 PM berberry has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by coffee_addict, posted 05-04-2004 1:11 AM Morte has not replied

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