Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 108 (8801 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 11-18-2017 5:03 AM
333 online now:
frako, PaulK (2 members, 331 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: jaufre
Post Volume:
Total: 822,604 Year: 27,210/21,208 Month: 1,123/1,714 Week: 331/525 Day: 6/67 Hour: 0/0

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1
2
3Next
Author Topic:   Why did Jesus kill the Pigs?
Iblis
Member (Idle past 1483 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 16 of 42 (534659)
11-10-2009 5:56 AM


My Name Is Legion
"That's a nice bunch of pigs you got there," said Jesus.

"Herd," corrected the swine-keeper.

"I'm sure you have heard how nice they are many times, I'm just telling you myself," answered Jesus.

"No, no," said the poor rural fellow, "herd of pigs!"

"Well of course I've heard of pigs!" exclaimed the savior dude.

"Oh no," said the disgusted farmhand, "the pig herd!"

"Well I'm sorry," said Jesus, "How was I supposed to know you didn't want your pigs to hear how nice they are?"

"Aaaaaaaaaagh STFU you retard!" said the pigs, and jumped off a cliff ...


  
rogere
Junior Member (Idle past 2821 days)
Posts: 1
Joined: 11-27-2009


Message 17 of 42 (537257)
11-27-2009 11:51 PM


Why Jesus allowed demons to inhabit the pigs.
Jesus went to visit the Gerasene people to evangelize. These folks were gentiles as evidenced by the fact that they had herds of pigs. The demon spirits obviously did not want Christ to evangelize in this area. So, there game plan was to ask Jesus to allow them to inhabit the pigs as they were driven out of the demon-possessed man. The demons thought process was to inhabit the pigs and to cause the pigs to stampede down the embankment to their death in the water. The demons believed this would cause the shepherds to tell the townspeople of the affair and that the townspeople, recognizing the significant financial loss of the pigs, would ask Jesus to leave the area. Thus, the gospel would not be preached in the gentile area and the demons could continue to have their way with the gentile people. However, the demons victory was short-lived. For before leaving the area, the formerly demon-possessed man now in his right-mind, begged Jesus to follow him as a disciple. Jesus told him to go back home and tell his family what God did for him. Yet, the man instead told the people in the 10-city decapolis about what Jesus did. Thus, the victory belonged to Jesus because the gospel was indeed preached in the gentile area - not by Jesus but by His disciple. Amen!
    
jaywill
Member
Posts: 4272
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 18 of 42 (537441)
11-28-2009 3:36 PM


Who are the demons?

The demons are disembodied spirits of creatures that existed on the earth before the creation of Adam. They are the disembodied beings who followed Satan with the rebellious angels in a revolt against God.

Part of their judgment was to lose their physical bodies and be restricted to the what must be the deep water of the sea.

Since Adam relinquished his dominion to the rule of Satan when Adam also rebelled the demons seem to have some freedom to:

1.) Roam the earth in "waterless places".

2.) Seek human bodies to infest and possess.

Here we see Jesus teaching that the demons rebelliously leave thier area of confinement and search for human sinners as subjects to demon posses their bodies:

"When the unclean spirit goes out from the man, it roams through waterless places, seeking rest, and not finding it, it says, I will return to my house from which I came out. And it comes and finds it swept and decorated.

Then it goes and takes along other spirits more evil than itself, seven of them, and they enter and settle down there. And the last state of that man is worse than the first." (Luke 11:24-26)

The demon is called by Jesus the "unclean spirit". They are punished by being deprived of the physical bodies they had in pre-Adamic times. In the age of the sinful fall of man, the demons leave the watery place and possess the bodies of sinful people. If necessary they will gang up as a group and firmly hold that poor victim's body. For them to be without a body is a restless torment.

When Jesus expelled the demons from the man's body the next best thing for them was to possess the bodies of animals. The pigs were available. And this also may have something to do with why God in the Old Testament had some animals slaughtered along with the sinful humans of some rebellious occult riden society.

At any rate the demons are also called, "the dead" in Revelation 20. And it is clear that they are a distinct class of dead beings from dead humans:

"And I saw the dead, the great and the small,standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened; and another scroll was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by the things which were written in the scrolls, according to their deeds. (v.12)

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, each of them, according to their works." (v.13) (Rev. 20:12,13)

Some of us believe that "the dead" in verse 13 who were given up by the sea are the demons, the judged bodiless beings from the pre-Adamic age. The reason is that "the dead" given up by death and Hades should include ALL dead human beings. Those humans who died, for instance, by drowning at sea should also be included in the dead who are in Hades.

So the dead given up by the sea may refer to the demons who should be confined to the sea. But in this age some of them escape and wander in "waterless places" seeking to possess bodies again of humans.

Now the demons were expecting one day to be tormented by Christ:

"... Son of God... Have you come here before the time to torment us?" (Matt.8:29)

They realize that thier present confinement and restlessness is not yet the final torment they are to receive. Their ultimate time to be given up by the sea as "the dead" and be judged for their deeds is not until the Great White throne judgment alluded to above in Revelation 20.

Jesus allows them to escape into the physical bodies of the swine.

Now, exactly why the herd ran to their death in the water I am not sure. It could be that the demons were trying to take thier relatively restful pig habitations into the water to escape further possible judgment from the Son of God. They may have known full well that they needed to return to the watery place.

It may also be that the tormented pigs just could not tolerate being demon possessed. I do not know.

Look at the levels of their desire from all the relavent passages. I propose.


1.) They do not want to be in the final torment of the last judgment.

2.) They would prefer to this to be in the water restless.

3.) But if they could they would wander about in "waterless places" seeking human sinners to possess their bodies, vitimizing sinners.

4.) If they cannot secure human bodies and are cast out of them by the Spirit of God, they would prefer animal bodies.

5.) They would rather be in the water with animal bodies than be disembodied.

6.) Best of all would be for them to have thier original bodies of the pre-Adamic age. But that is totally impossible since that world was judged by God before the creation of Adam.

One more matter. In the new heaven and new earth two things will be no more.

1.) Death and Hades (Rev. 20:14)

2.) The sea (Rev. 21:1)

Death and Hades as the container for the dead human sinners is no longer needed. And the sea as the container of the dead demonic beings is no longer needed.

We see some symbolism of the sea representing death. Hades and the sea are illiminated in the new creation. Death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire the second death (Rev. 20:14) and the dead unbelievers and the dead disembodied demonic beings are judged in the eternal torment at that time.

In the mean time the gospel is preached to humans that they may be saved.

Now, it is my opinion that because the demons partly live in the deep waters and partly come up out of the water to roam in waterless places seeking sinners to possess, the book of revelation symbolizes them as amphibians, as frogs. We all know amphibians like frogs live both in the water and on the dry land:

"And I saw, out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits as frogs; For they are spirits of demons doing signs, which go forth to the kings of the whole inhabited earth to gather them to the war of the great day of God the Almighty." (Rev. 16:13,14)

The demons are depicted as FROGS, hoping up out of the water onto the land. And in the end times some of these demonic beings will perform supernatural things in their last ditch attempt to defeat Christ who comes to torment them at the approaching time of judgment.

I believe now that Satan and the evil angels and demons are more and more wetting people's appetite for the miraculous, the occult, the casting of spells, and acts of sorcery.

We would do well to prepare ourselves against deception by prayer in the Holy Spirit and loving of Christ and the pure word of the Bible.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10026
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 19 of 42 (538238)
12-04-2009 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by purpledawn
05-19-2009 9:57 AM


Re: Roman Connection
Thats an interesting hypothesis, PD.

  • Did Jesus have any power beyond that of a mere man? If so, why give the demons a vessel that they want? Why hurt the poor pigs? Even pigs were creatures whom God must have cared about!(Dietary laws notwithstanding)
  • IF Jesus was only human, your explanation would make a lot of sense, and the Bible would be further shown to have been written by humans in order to teach theological philosophy to other humans.

    Does anyone else have any ideas?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 15 by purpledawn, posted 05-19-2009 9:57 AM purpledawn has acknowledged this reply

      
  • Buzsaw
    Inactive Member


    Message 20 of 42 (538244)
    12-04-2009 6:58 PM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
    12-01-2004 3:36 AM


    Demons Cruel. Jesus Graceous.
    Phat writes:

    Some observations:
    The Demons beg Jesus to send them into the pigs and He says Yes.
    The people beg Jesus to leave the region and He says Yes.
    The ex-demoniac begs Jesus to let him come with Him, and Jesus says No.
    Whats up with this cruel tale of pig murder?

    Hi Phat. Here's my take on the account, which imo btw, was no tale, but an actual event.

    1. The demons effected the animal cruelty. They got their just due when the soul-less animals perished and all of who have read the account have been fore-warned that about the power and danger of dabling in demonic doctrines such as the accult, etc. Don't mess with them and rely on Jesus for deliverance.

    2. Jesus never ever forces himself on anyone. They asked him to leave, foolishly deeming the value of the pigs higher than the deliverance of a man and his soul from the demon posession. Had they invited Jesus to stay, perhaps multitudes of sick, maimed and posessed citizens would have also been mercifully delivered.

    3. Jesus wisely told the delivered man to go and witness his deliverance to the folks. Jesus had his chosen desciples who were to minister with him. The man would have effected far more good to his own people who would see the mnotorious demoniac restored than to run off and be forgotten.

    4. There is no such thing as murdering a pig. The proper word here is killing or slaughter and the death of the pigs was a lesson to all; that the devil and his demons are the cause of all suffering and death. Jesus killed no pigs. The demons effected their death. One immediate human soul, body and mind was saved and others would be saved via the testimony of the one. No souls were lost when the brute beasts died from the demons.

    Edited by Buzsaw, : Change wording.


    BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
    The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Phat, posted 12-01-2004 3:36 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    Replies to this message:
     Message 21 by caldron68, posted 01-03-2010 12:10 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
     Message 25 by frako, posted 06-19-2011 6:14 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

      
    caldron68
    Member (Idle past 1428 days)
    Posts: 79
    From: USA
    Joined: 08-26-2007


    Message 21 of 42 (541413)
    01-03-2010 12:10 PM
    Reply to: Message 20 by Buzsaw
    12-04-2009 6:58 PM


    Re: Demons Cruel. Jesus Graceous.
    buzsaw writes:


    that the devil and his demons are the cause of all suffering and death

    Who created, or allowed for the creation of, the devil and his demons?

    Cheers


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 20 by Buzsaw, posted 12-04-2009 6:58 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

        
    PgXero78
    Member (Idle past 2690 days)
    Posts: 2
    From: Denton, Tx
    Joined: 04-05-2010


    Message 22 of 42 (553788)
    04-05-2010 2:31 AM
    Reply to: Message 14 by Peg
    05-18-2009 11:33 PM


    Re: 2000 Piggies Went All the Way Home
    Very sound, righteously guided and profound advice. I love it... Thanks for the very informative answers..


    <a href="http://s32.photobucket.com/albums/d25/pgzero78/Blog%20it%20Pics/?action=view¤t=127044591364469.gif" target="_blank"></a>
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 14 by Peg, posted 05-18-2009 11:33 PM Peg has not yet responded

        
    anglagard
    Member
    Posts: 2170
    From: Big Spring, TX, USA
    Joined: 03-18-2006
    Member Rating: 5.8


    Message 23 of 42 (553792)
    04-05-2010 2:58 AM


    Boogeymen and Demonization
    It must be very convenient for authoritarians to label all who disagree, even oven the most minor details, as being 'possessed by demons.'

    It also conveniently provides an excuse for any form of abuse upon the 'possessed' be they the victims of Al-Queda in Manhattan or children in day care in Oklahoma City.

    I'm sure it is very comforting for the self-righteous to be able to justify any action regardless of the laws of God or man.


    The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
    — Salman Rushdie

    This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen


    Replies to this message:
     Message 26 by Phat, posted 10-28-2017 8:45 AM anglagard has not yet responded

        
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 10026
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 24 of 42 (620601)
    06-18-2011 6:35 AM
    Reply to: Message 4 by Brian
    12-01-2004 2:46 PM


    Re: Pigs huh?
    quote:
    I always wondered what the poor pig farmer had done to deserve having his livelihood taken away!
    Yes, it seems rather cruel to take a mans livelihood away simply to explain something.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 4 by Brian, posted 12-01-2004 2:46 PM Brian has not yet responded

      
    frako
    Member
    Posts: 2715
    From: slovenija
    Joined: 09-04-2010
    Member Rating: 2.4


    Message 25 of 42 (620670)
    06-19-2011 6:14 PM
    Reply to: Message 20 by Buzsaw
    12-04-2009 6:58 PM


    Re: Demons Cruel. Jesus Graceous.
    Here's my take on the account, which imo btw, was no tale, but an actual event.

    So you actually believe in demonic possession?

    How is demonic possession different from lets say insanity??

    4. There is no such thing as murdering a pig. The proper word here is killing or slaughter and the death of the pigs was a lesson to all

    Do yoi have any livestock or any of your relatives what if i came arround and "slaughtered" them all to teach you a lesson ??

    Jesus killed no pigs. The demons effected their death.

    Correction what if i heard your livestock off a cliff i will not be the one killing them the fall will (or the landing).

    Or if i have the means, the ability, the time, at no expense to me but just not the will to keep your livestock (your livelihood your pension fund, your house .... ), from dieing, burning down ..... Would you hold me partially responsible.

    As a real world example your house is burning down and you are away insted of calling the firemen i get a bunch of march mellows and roste them on your burning house. When you come back i give you a lecture on fire safety.

    OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
    AdminPD

    Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 20 by Buzsaw, posted 12-04-2009 6:58 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

        
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 10026
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 26 of 42 (822574)
    10-28-2017 8:45 AM
    Reply to: Message 23 by anglagard
    04-05-2010 2:58 AM


    Re: Boogeymen and Demonization
    Topic Remix:
    .
    Matt 8:28-34
    28 When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29 "What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?"

    30 Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31 The demons begged Jesus, "If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs."

    32 He said to them, "Go!" So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water. 33 Those tending the pigs ran off, went into the town and reported all this, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men. 34 Then the whole town went out to meet Jesus. And when they saw him, they pleaded with him to leave their region.


    Also mentioned in Luke:
    Luke 8:26-39

    26 They sailed to the region of the Gerasenes,
    which is across the lake from Galilee. 27 When Jesus stepped ashore, he was met by a demon-possessed man from the town. For a long time this man had not worn clothes or lived in a house, but had lived in the tombs. 28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell at his feet, shouting at the top of his voice, "What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, don't torture me!" 29 For Jesus had commanded the evil spirit to come out of the man. Many times it had seized him, and though he was chained hand and foot and kept under guard, he had broken his chains and had been driven by the demon into solitary places.
    30 Jesus asked him, "What is your name?"
    "Legion," he replied, because many demons had gone into him. 31 And they begged him repeatedly not to order them to go into the Abyss.
    32 A large herd of pigs was feeding there on the hillside. The demons begged Jesus to let them go into them, and he gave them permission. 33 When the demons came out of the man, they went into the pigs, and the herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and was drowned.
    34 When those tending the pigs saw what had happened, they ran off and reported this in the town and countryside, 35 and the people went out to see what had happened. When they came to Jesus, they found the man from whom the demons had gone out, sitting at Jesus' feet, dressed and in his right mind; and they were afraid. 36 Those who had seen it told the people how the demon-possessed man had been cured. 37 Then all the people of the region of the Gerasenes asked Jesus to leave them, because they were overcome with fear. So he got into the boat and left.
    38 The man from whom the demons had gone out begged to go with him, but Jesus sent him away, saying, 39 "Return home and tell how much God has done for you." So the man went away and told all over town how much Jesus had done for him.

    Whats up with this parable and cruel tale of Pig Murder?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 23 by anglagard, posted 04-05-2010 2:58 AM anglagard has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 27 by jar, posted 10-28-2017 9:17 AM Phat has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 29603
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.0


    Message 27 of 42 (822576)
    10-28-2017 9:17 AM
    Reply to: Message 26 by Phat
    10-28-2017 8:45 AM


    Re: Boogeymen and Demonization
    Phat writes:

    Whats up with this parable and cruel tale of Pig Murder?

    Looks like you and the whole town missed the point and what's up with the parable is that most folk miss the point.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 26 by Phat, posted 10-28-2017 8:45 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 28 by Phat, posted 10-28-2017 11:19 AM jar has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 10026
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 28 of 42 (822578)
    10-28-2017 11:19 AM
    Reply to: Message 27 by jar
    10-28-2017 9:17 AM


    Re: Boogeymen and Demonization
    jar writes:

    Looks like you and the whole town missed the point and what's up with the parable is that most folk miss the point.

    Enlighten us, O teacher.

    Why would Jesus destroy the livelihood of a region or family?

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 27 by jar, posted 10-28-2017 9:17 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 29 by jar, posted 10-28-2017 11:44 AM Phat has responded
     Message 30 by ringo, posted 10-28-2017 11:51 AM Phat has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 29603
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.0


    Message 29 of 42 (822581)
    10-28-2017 11:44 AM
    Reply to: Message 28 by Phat
    10-28-2017 11:19 AM


    Re: Boogeymen and Demonization
    In the stories (remember this is all fiction and there are two mutually exclusive stories), fiction told by Jews to Jews.

    The story is being told in a Roman Protectorate called Palestine.

    The Jews are a protected minority in Palestine and given special privileges.

    To Jews pigs are unclean animals. You don't eat them, wear them, raise them.

    To the rest of the population pigs are food and wealth and clothing and tools and decorative objects.

    Both populations believe in demonic possession.

    One population is jealous of the other populations special status and considers them weird at best.

    Someone who can control demons for any reason is a person to fear.

    Now:

    would one population see casting demons out of humans and into a useless, worthless object that is then killed and destroyed ending the threat from demons as good while one population see it as destruction of property AND someone with control of demons that might just cast them into the people?

    Phat writes:

    Why would Jesus destroy the livelihood of a region or family?

    As a story told to Jews by Jews and about Jews see it as describing destruction of a livelihood?

    If the answer to that is "No, they would not see it as describing destruction of a livelihood then the topic must be something else.

    Throw "describing destruction of a livelihood" away and go back to the story.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 28 by Phat, posted 10-28-2017 11:19 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 37 by Phat, posted 10-30-2017 1:31 PM jar has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 13864
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 1.6


    Message 30 of 42 (822583)
    10-28-2017 11:51 AM
    Reply to: Message 28 by Phat
    10-28-2017 11:19 AM


    Re: Boogeymen and Demonization
    Phat writes:

    Why would Jesus destroy the livelihood of a region or family?


    Why would Sherman destroy the cotton gins?
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 28 by Phat, posted 10-28-2017 11:19 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 31 by Phat, posted 10-28-2017 12:08 PM ringo has responded

      
    Prev1
    2
    3Next
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.0 Beta
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017