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Author Topic:   Why did Jesus kill the Pigs?
Phat
Member
Posts: 10224
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 31 of 45 (822584)
10-28-2017 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by ringo
10-28-2017 11:51 AM


Re: Boogeymen and Demonization
Sherman, unlike Jesus, was a military general. Two totally different personalities.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by ringo, posted 10-28-2017 11:51 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by ringo, posted 10-28-2017 12:25 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 32 of 45 (822585)
10-28-2017 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Phat
10-28-2017 12:08 PM


Re: Boogeymen and Demonization
Phat writes:

Sherman, unlike Jesus, was a military general. Two totally different personalities.


How so? Didn't Jesus come to disrupt the status quo?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Phat, posted 10-28-2017 12:08 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-28-2017 8:37 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply
 Message 43 by Phat, posted 11-19-2017 9:41 AM ringo has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15984
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 33 of 45 (822593)
10-28-2017 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by ringo
10-28-2017 12:25 PM


Re: Boogeymen and Demonization
Didn't Jesus come to disrupt the status quo?

Sure, but he didn't bring the Military Division of the Mississippi with him.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by ringo, posted 10-28-2017 12:25 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by jar, posted 10-28-2017 8:46 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29749
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 34 of 45 (822594)
10-28-2017 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Dr Adequate
10-28-2017 8:37 PM


Re: Boogeymen and Demonization
Didn't he bring the Galileen Dozen with him?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-28-2017 8:37 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 10-29-2017 3:24 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10224
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 35 of 45 (822595)
10-29-2017 3:24 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by jar
10-28-2017 8:46 PM


Re: Boogeymen and Demonization
Didn't he bring the Galileen Dozen with him?
Sure but there is no evidence that this group indulged in any forceful or violent acts unless they were getting arrested. The mystery remains why Jesus would allow the demons from one guy to destroy the livelihood of another innocent victim. A herd of pigs may have represented one mans entire fortune. No wonder the people wanted Him to leave their town. So he cures one crazy loon...but at what expense?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by jar, posted 10-28-2017 8:46 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 10-29-2017 6:31 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29749
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 36 of 45 (822596)
10-29-2017 6:31 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Phat
10-29-2017 3:24 AM


Re: Boogeymen and Demonization
Go reread Message 29 and then reread the passages.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 10-29-2017 3:24 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10224
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 37 of 45 (822623)
10-30-2017 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by jar
10-28-2017 11:44 AM


Motive...Who Received Healing?
jar writes:

Throw "describing the destruction of a livelihood" away and go back to the story.

OK.

So if the story was a Jewish one, getting rid of the pigs was only helping everyone.

The non-Jews still wanted Jesus to leave, however. Perhaps I was seeing it from their perspective...he was not helping them much at all.

Another question arises as to the belief of the man possessed. Was he a Jew fallen on hard mental times? Or was he one of the others?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by jar, posted 10-28-2017 11:44 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by jar, posted 10-30-2017 4:08 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29749
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 38 of 45 (822635)
10-30-2017 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Phat
10-30-2017 1:31 PM


Re: Motive...Who Received Healing?
Phat writes:

So if the story was a Jewish one, getting rid of the pigs was only helping everyone.

The non-Jews still wanted Jesus to leave, however. Perhaps I was seeing it from their perspective...he was not helping them much at all.

Still missing the point.

We don't know if the "villagers" were Jews or Greeks or Romans. It doesn't matter.

The pigs, just like the Garden or the God character in Genesis 2&3 is just a plot device.

Go back and reread Message 29.

Was there something in the fable that both Jews and non-Jews should fear?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Phat, posted 10-30-2017 1:31 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Phat, posted 10-30-2017 4:43 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10224
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 39 of 45 (822643)
10-30-2017 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by jar
10-30-2017 4:08 PM


Re: Motive...Who Received Healing?
Yes. The supernatural.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by jar, posted 10-30-2017 4:08 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by jar, posted 10-30-2017 4:48 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29749
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 40 of 45 (822644)
10-30-2017 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Phat
10-30-2017 4:43 PM


Re: Motive...Who Received Healing?
Specifically, the ability to control demons.

In the story that is what the people fear. It's not the loss of the pigs it is a fear of someone who can control demons.

Or raise the dead.

Or turn water into wine.

Or tell folk that "They are NOT the chosen ones of God."

It is someone who is challenging the established order; who works outside the establishment.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Phat, posted 10-30-2017 4:43 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Phat, posted 11-01-2017 12:15 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10224
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 41 of 45 (822769)
11-01-2017 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by jar
10-30-2017 4:48 PM


Re: Motive...Who Received Healing?
So did Jesus come for the Jews or for everyone?

And if so, why are you against Pauls new Religion?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by jar, posted 10-30-2017 4:48 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 11-01-2017 1:01 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29749
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 42 of 45 (822782)
11-01-2017 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Phat
11-01-2017 12:15 PM


Re: Motive...Who Received Healing?
Phat writes:

So did Jesus come for the Jews or for everyone?

Huh?

Jesus came as a teacher. What did Jesus teach about who are God's children?

We've been over this many times before Phat.

Luke 4 writes:

25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;

26 But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.

27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.

28 And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,

Phat writes:

And if so, why are you against Pauls new Religion?

I am not against Paul's new religion as long as folk understand even Paul's New Religion is not Christianity but just one man's creation.

And Christianity is not God's religion.

Christianity is a human creation.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Phat, posted 11-01-2017 12:15 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10224
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 43 of 45 (823917)
11-19-2017 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by ringo
10-28-2017 12:25 PM


Challenging The Status Quo
Interesting article online...which says what I wanted to say better than I could.

quote:
Here are 4 ways Jesus challenged the status quo.

1. JESUS REJECTED “BUSINESS AS USUAL”.
In the large city of Jerusalem, he attacked the money changers, who were running a racket swapping temple shekels for Roman money at a profit. He didn’t just chew them out, he physically chased them out. When a corrupt tax collector decided to follow Jesus, he returned all his ill-gotten gains and then some. “Business as usual” just couldn’t continue when Jesus got involved.

And then there were his frequent warnings about wealth. It was easier for a camel to squeeze through the eye of a needle, he said, than for a rich person to get into God’s kingdom. He told stories about rich fools headed for hellfire and poor widows who captured the heart of God. One pious tycoon was asked to sell everything and give the proceeds to the poor. “No one can serve both God and money,” Jesus said. That kind of teaching made more than a few enemies among those who would profit from the status quo.

2. JESUS TURNED THE LAW ON ITS HEAD.
While he didn’t break Roman law, there were hundreds of complex and burdensome religious laws that the religious leaders had added to Scripture. Jesus railed against a religion that focused more on rules than people – more on obedience than love. For example, the Bible says Jesus intentionally healed people on the Sabbath, knowing it would violate the religious law. “The Sabbath was made for people, and not people for the Sabbath,” he said.

There were a lot of these run-ins with the Pharisees, the religious class of his day. Jesus berated them for hypocrisy and corruption. In turn, they accused him of hanging out with the wrong kind of people. What self-respecting leader would go to parties with prostitutes and swindlers? They called Jesus a “friend of sinners,” and the crazy part is – he didn’t seem to mind.

3. JESUS SHUNNED POLITICS.
If you think our politics are complicated, take a look at the time in which Jesus lived. The Romans had been occupying and oppressing his home country for about a century. Some groups tried to appease them, others coexisted, and still others fought back. Among his disciples, Jesus had at least one rebel (Simon the Zealot), and Judas Iscariot’s last name might indicate a connection to the Sicari, who were hardcore Jewish freedom fighters.

People flocked to hear Jesus, but he generally avoided political messaging—but he did talk about the kingdom of God. Some people would definitely see that as a return to Jewish independence, with a God-ordained king in charge. According to one Gospel, after Jesus miraculously fed a crowd of more than 5,000, the people surrounded him, intending to make him a king, but Jesus walked away. As he explained later to Pontius Pilate, “My kingdom is not of this world.”

4. JESUS MADE OUTRAGEOUS CLAIMS.
Early in his career, at his hometown synagogue, Jesus read a prophecy about a savior and announced that it was coming true right in front of them. When he scolded them for disbelief, they tried to kill him.

In general, Jesus avoided sounding blasphemous, but when other people started calling him Messiah or Son of God, he didn’t correct them. When he healed people, he often asked them to keep quiet about it, but they rushed out and told their stories (wouldn’t we all?), which spread like wildfire.

Yet Jesus also fed the fury, declaring that he existed before Abraham and that he was “one” with God. In a dispute at the holiest site in Jerusalem, he said, “Tear down this temple and in three days I will build it again.” The religious leaders treated it like a terrorist threat, but the temple he was actually talking about was his own body. He was forecasting his own resurrection.


NoNukes is right. I am trying to get my head together again, and I am finding that I dont even like some of what my own religion of choice teaches. I prefer Pauls more than conquerors speech rather than Jesus sell all that you have admonitions. And when Jesus killed the pigs, he evidently cared nothing for the livlihood of some of the people. And livlihood is what is keeping me up at night worrying!


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by ringo, posted 10-28-2017 12:25 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by ringo, posted 11-19-2017 1:44 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 44 of 45 (823934)
11-19-2017 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Phat
11-19-2017 9:41 AM


Re: Challenging The Status Quo
quote:
JESUS SHUNNED POLITICS.
If you think our politics are complicated, take a look at the time in which Jesus lived. The Romans had been occupying and oppressing his home country for about a century. Some groups tried to appease them, others coexisted, and still others fought back. Among his disciples, Jesus had at least one rebel (Simon the Zealot), and Judas Iscariot’s last name might indicate a connection to the Sicari, who were hardcore Jewish freedom fighters.

People flocked to hear Jesus, but he generally avoided political messaging—but he did talk about the kingdom of God. Some people would definitely see that as a return to Jewish independence, with a God-ordained king in charge. According to one Gospel, after Jesus miraculously fed a crowd of more than 5,000, the people surrounded him, intending to make him a king, but Jesus walked away. As he explained later to Pontius Pilate, “My kingdom is not of this world.”



Sounds like a politician to me.

Phat writes:

And when Jesus killed the pigs, he evidently cared nothing for the livlihood of some of the people.


I don't know why you obsess about the owners of the pigs. It's a story. Whatever happened before or after the story is beside the point. Does it matter who Little Red Riding Hood married?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Phat, posted 11-19-2017 9:41 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1851
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 45 of 45 (823948)
11-20-2017 7:25 AM


Because, like all the people around him/her knew that pigs don't and can't fly. Then it was called a "miracle" after all the piggies were chased to fall to their deaths. How stupid is that?
    
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