Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 125 (8733 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 02-21-2017 9:17 AM
441 online now:
jar, NoNukes, PaulK, Percy (Admin), RAZD, Theodoric, ThinAirDesigns, vimesey (8 members, 433 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: timtak
Upcoming Birthdays: CosmicChimp
Post Volume:
Total: 799,028 Year: 3,634/21,208 Month: 2,029/1,605 Week: 229/376 Day: 19/113 Hour: 1/5


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
14151617
18
19Next
Author Topic:   The meaning of the trinity
Phat
Member
Posts: 9195
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 256 of 281 (796091)
12-22-2016 2:17 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by jar
12-21-2016 9:34 PM


Re: Four spiritual laws remix
So Phat, who built the Ark?
Noah and God both.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by jar, posted 12-21-2016 9:34 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by Tangle, posted 12-22-2016 4:52 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 258 by jar, posted 12-22-2016 7:35 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4299
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 257 of 281 (796093)
12-22-2016 4:52 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by Phat
12-22-2016 2:17 AM


Re: Four spiritual laws remix
Why did god need help?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Phat, posted 12-22-2016 2:17 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28145
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 258 of 281 (796097)
12-22-2016 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by Phat
12-22-2016 2:17 AM


Re: Four spiritual laws remix
Really Phat? According to the Bible God simply told Noah what to do and it was all up to Noah, his family and likely his neighbors who then did not get to go on the cruise to do the work.

What exactly did the God character in the story do? Well in the story the God character sat around waiting until Noah & Co did the work and then turned the faucets on. Sat around for thirty days and turned the faucet off. Then realized he made a mistake and promised to never do it again.

So what part of building the Ark did the God character do exactly?

Are you like so many other Christians just making stuff up to add to the Bible stories?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Phat, posted 12-22-2016 2:17 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 12703
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 259 of 281 (796102)
12-22-2016 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by Phat
12-21-2016 9:09 PM


Re: Four spiritual laws remix
Phat writes:

Nobody's salvation is in their own hands...apart from belief and surrender. Good works wont get you there.


Read the story. Noah had to believe God but he had to DO what God said, not just start a personality cult. Faith without works is dead and Noah would have been dead without the works. The works are the indicator that the faith is real.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Phat, posted 12-21-2016 9:09 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by Phat, posted 12-23-2016 10:14 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9195
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 260 of 281 (796142)
12-23-2016 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by ringo
12-22-2016 10:48 AM


Re: Four spiritual laws remix
The belief is necessary to listen to the instructions. People cant just run off doing random works and expect this to be proof of their faith. They would only be having faith in their own preconceived righteousness.

So make yourself an ark out of cypress wood. Make rooms in it. Cover it with tar inside and out. Here is how I want you to build it. The ark has to be 450 feet long. It has to be 75 feet wide and 45 feet high. Make a roof for it. Leave the sides of the ark open a foot and a half from the top. Put a door in one side of the ark. Make lower, middle, and upper decks. - Genesis 6:14-16
To obey requires belief.
Noah did everything exactly as God commanded him. - Genesis 6:22

Edited by Phat, : added


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by ringo, posted 12-22-2016 10:48 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by ringo, posted 12-23-2016 10:46 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 12703
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 261 of 281 (796146)
12-23-2016 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by Phat
12-23-2016 10:14 AM


Re: Four spiritual laws remix
Phat writes:

The belief is necessary to listen to the instructions.


No it isn't. You judge the instructions on their own merits, regardless of the source. As Paul said, the Gentiles knew what to do without being told by the Hebrew God.

In fact, we can judge the messenger by the message. If the message makes no sense - e.g. regarding the age of the earth - then we need to disregard it.

Phat writes:

People cant just run off doing random works and expect this to be proof of their faith.


It isn't about OUR expectations. We do what we know is right and that's how God judges us.

Phat writes:

To obey requires belief.


Belief in the MESSAGE.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Phat, posted 12-23-2016 10:14 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Phat, posted 01-12-2017 10:04 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9195
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 262 of 281 (797132)
01-12-2017 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by ringo
12-23-2016 10:46 AM


Re: Four spiritual laws remix
ringo writes:

You judge the instructions on their own merits, regardless of the source. As Paul said, the Gentiles knew what to do without being told by the Hebrew God.

If Paul had believed this, he would have had no need to preach Christ.

We do what we know is right and that's how God judges us.

Proverbs 14:12 writes:

There is a way that seems right to a man,
But its end is the way of death.

We do not need evidence to choose to believe. It may not be wise to choose not to choose Jesus while awaiting further evidence. In the meantime, go on doing what you know to be right...by all means....but it would be a mistake to wait until the apple falls from the tree and knocks you out rather than choosing to believe in gravity without evidence.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by ringo, posted 12-23-2016 10:46 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by ringo, posted 01-16-2017 11:30 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9195
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 263 of 281 (797206)
01-14-2017 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by ringo
12-20-2016 10:47 AM


Re: Four spiritual laws remix
It isn't so much a desire as a need. Remember that Noah needed to build his own ark. His salvation was in his own hands.
Noah, however...as well as Abraham...were obedient to God. They did not desire to be free from authority. On the contrary, they listened to authority and did what God said. They did so willingly.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by ringo, posted 12-20-2016 10:47 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by ringo, posted 01-16-2017 11:33 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 12703
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 264 of 281 (797287)
01-16-2017 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by Phat
01-12-2017 10:04 AM


Re: Four spiritual laws remix
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

As Paul said, the Gentiles knew what to do without being told by the Hebrew God.


If Paul had believed this, he would have had no need to preach Christ.

If he didn't believe it, why did he say it?

Phat writes:

We do not need evidence to choose to believe.


For the umpteenth time, belief is for when there is no evidence.

Phat writes:

... it would be a mistake to wait until the apple falls from the tree and knocks you out rather than choosing to believe in gravity without evidence.


Nonsense. We all accept gravity BECAUSE of evidence. We see things fall and we infer that sitting under suspended objects is a bad idea. Believing in gravity without evidence is no better than believing in gremlins without evidence.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Phat, posted 01-12-2017 10:04 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 12703
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 265 of 281 (797288)
01-16-2017 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by Phat
01-14-2017 3:02 PM


Re: Four spiritual laws remix
Phat writes:

They did not desire to be free from authority.


Who does?

Phat writes:

On the contrary, they listened to authority and did what God said.


Indeed they did. And God told Noah to build his own ark. Noah's salvation was in his own hands.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Phat, posted 01-14-2017 3:02 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Phat, posted 01-19-2017 10:31 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9195
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 266 of 281 (797382)
01-19-2017 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by ringo
01-16-2017 11:33 AM


Authority
whose authority are you under?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by ringo, posted 01-16-2017 11:33 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by ringo, posted 01-19-2017 11:08 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 12703
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 267 of 281 (797384)
01-19-2017 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by Phat
01-19-2017 10:31 AM


Re: Authority
Phat writes:

whose authority are you under?


Reality. I'm subject to gravity and friction and aging, so I have to be careful of slipping on the ice. I'm also subject to taxes and prices, so I have to pay my bills to avoid spending all of my time out on the ice.

Why do I need to add a celestial leprechaun to that list?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Phat, posted 01-19-2017 10:31 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Phat, posted 01-20-2017 6:58 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9195
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 268 of 281 (797410)
01-20-2017 6:58 AM
Reply to: Message 267 by ringo
01-19-2017 11:08 AM


It's A Wonderful Life in Communion
Why do I need to add a celestial leprechaun to that list?

Yes...perhaps a celestial leprechaun would by definition be of no help...even if you got a pot of gold and all the lucky charms you could eat.

You are convinced that you need nothing apart from what you have been given.

Perhaps if I am your "Clarence" I have not earned my wings just yet.

If GOD is useful as a font of wisdom, why not just seek wise humans?

If GOD is useful due to magic, a whole new debate will ensue over whether magic actually exists and what it is by definition.

If GOD is useful only as a voice of conscience which we all interpret differently, why are we even having a debate?

Personally, I believe that GOD wants some form of relationship with everyone. The Trinity is, to me, simply GOD and Jesus who shared the same Spirit. You and Stile see no evidence nor even need of such a communion..thus perhaps you can find it among humanity alone.

If I am Clarence, however, the verdict is still out on whether or not we will have a relationship ongoing. I certainly plan on hanging in there...as long as Percy provides the platform.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by ringo, posted 01-19-2017 11:08 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by ringo, posted 01-20-2017 10:47 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 12703
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 269 of 281 (797430)
01-20-2017 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by Phat
01-20-2017 6:58 AM


Re: It's A Wonderful Life in Communion
Phat writes:

You are convinced that you need nothing apart from what you have been given.


No. I'm convinced that I HAVE nothing apart from what I have been given. I am NOT convinced that there IS anything "apart" from what I have been given.

Phat writes:

If GOD is useful as a font of wisdom, why not just seek wise humans?


Any wisdom that supposedly comes from God is filtered through humans - so what's the difference?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Phat, posted 01-20-2017 6:58 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by Phat, posted 01-21-2017 4:41 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9195
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 270 of 281 (797457)
01-21-2017 4:41 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by ringo
01-20-2017 10:47 AM


Re: It's A Wonderful Life in Communion
ringo writes:

I'm convinced that I HAVE nothing apart from what I have been given. I am NOT convinced that there IS anything "apart" from what I have been given.

OK. If so, is it possible that all atheists have already been given the opportunity to know God? The next question is why would one prefer to ignore Him? (Stay hypothetical in your answer. ) Just because you lack evidence...is that any reason to ignore Him? What is it you would hypothetically want from Him that is any different from what I want from Him?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by ringo, posted 01-20-2017 10:47 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by Tangle, posted 01-21-2017 6:18 AM Phat has responded
 Message 275 by ringo, posted 01-23-2017 10:54 AM Phat has responded

  
RewPrev1
...
14151617
18
19Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017