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Author Topic:   "Evidence and Faith"
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 282 of 303 (403664)
06-04-2007 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by Hyroglyphx
06-04-2007 5:40 PM


Re: The Absolute Moralirty nonsense yet again.
Obviously not, being that the majority of the country voted for the "evil" man.
Or the majority of people are evil.
There are many other reasons though. People voted for him because they trusted the lies he and his administration told them. Hopefully, as more and more people come to realize that they were lied to, they will come to understand that he really is evil.
Jar, laws are passed from our ability to empathize/sympathize with others being victimized. Our entire code of law stems directly from a moral framework.
Your first sentence can stand on its own. The second sentence is unneeded.
It is also incorrect.
Laws are passed for a number of reason, most totally unrelated to morality.
A good example are speed limits. If the speed limit is 30 MPH it is 30 MPH regardless of whether or not there is ANY valid reason for it. It is 30 MPH when the road is totally empty or when it is so clogged with traffic that no movement is possible at any speed.
But that's your opinion. According to you, we live in a world full of moral relativity. Naturally, when a relativist tells me about this or that is evil, my first reaction is to tell them, "So what? What is your opinion supposed to mean to me?"
That appears to be the stock answer from Biblical Christians.
Everything revolves around what's in it for them.
The US is one of the only nations on planet earth that is concerned with the lives of innocent people. I mean, you do realize that if we were as bad and mean as many claim that we could simply carpet bomb Iraq and be done with it, right? But the thing staying our hand is the lessons learned from Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Unfortunately, the enemy is well aware of rules of engagement policies, which cares more about the African lousewart than it does its own troops.
Not only totally irrelevant, but a slanderous attack as well. Your response does not address in anyway what I posted and also implies that opposing an unjust war is equvalent to not caring for the troops.
Classic misrepresentation of the Christian Right Cult of Ignorance there guy.
Oh, so people get married just because?
Tradition. Indoctrination. Greed. Fear. Hope. Escape. Fantasy.
Uh-huh, and why is it illegal? Think about it. If laws didn't come from some moral framework, then laws would be completely nonsensical. Obviously it is illegal to molest little children because we find it morally reprehensible.
Nonsense. Also yet another example of rank dishonesty on your part.
The initial point you raised was on incest. Incest does not necessarily mean child molestation. As I pointed out to you, incest among consenting adults is nobodies business except the parties themselves. When the incest is between an adult and child outside agencies step in because society (and only certain segments of society at that) have decided that informed consent cannot be given by minors.
But these issues are great examples of relative morality. The things you cite are illegal in the US because the US has passed certain laws based on the current standards of that society.
In other countries and other societies different laws govern such activities. Even in the US, at different times in our history, there were different views about such issues.
The laws stand regardless of whether or not the things governed are moral or immoral.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-04-2007 5:40 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-04-2007 6:43 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 286 of 303 (403674)
06-04-2007 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by Hyroglyphx
06-04-2007 6:43 PM


Re: The Absolute Moralirty nonsense yet again.
Jar, you said that "evil" is predicated on where we live and how we are affected by that culture. You also said that people are products of their society. So if America is the bloodthirsty war machine you envision, then America is simply doing what its culture does, and Bush is simply a product of that culture.
Where then is the evil?
Yet more misrepresentation and a total failure to address what I posted.
Jar, traffic laws are enforced because there is a reasonable expectation that, should the average driver go any faster than the posted speed, it will likely cause an accident. And why don't they want to cause accidents? Because it kills people. Why don't they want people to die? Because we empathize with that.
Its like any other law that seems arbitrary. Beatings animals is a crime, not because of some arbitrary reason, but because we can empathize with the animal. And doing that to an innocent is immoral. Therefore, we pass laws in hopes that it will protect animals in the future.
Seriously, if laws didn't spawn from a moral framework, they would be completely arbitrary. That seems quite obvious to me. How can say that laws and morals bear no relevance to one another?
Again, simply avoiding addressing what I posted, when you even quoted what I said.
I repeat...
jar writes:
Laws are passed for a number of reason, most totally unrelated to morality.
A good example are speed limits. If the speed limit is 30 MPH it is 30 MPH regardless of whether or not there is ANY valid reason for it. It is 30 MPH when the road is totally empty or when it is so clogged with traffic that no movement is possible at any speed.
Seriously, if laws didn't spawn from a moral framework, they would be completely arbitrary.
Nonsense. They can be based on any number of considerations as well as being completely arbitrary (and many laws are completely arbitrary).
For example, in most cases speed limits are the same day and night even though conditions are totally different; they are the same in rain or shine even though the conditions are totally different; they are the same for the small agile MiniCooper and the big lumbering SUV even though the capabilities are entirely different; they are the same for the 16 year old with two weeks experience as well as the Formula 1 driver even though the individuals capabilities are entirely different and they are the same for the drunk driver as well as the sober driver, even though they capabilities are entirely different.
Is this what your marriage is/was based on? That's incredibly callow. Can't say I'm surprised though.
yet more of the classic Christian Cult of Ignorance tactic of trying to misdirect the audience.
You asked why people get married. I pointed out several (certainly not an exhaustive list) of reasons why people get married.
Instead of addressing what I posted you attempted to change the subject by implying that I might have gotten married for some callow reason.
Way to show the Christian Cult of Ignorance mindset nem.
Edited by jar, : hit wrong key.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-04-2007 6:43 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by riVeRraT, posted 06-04-2007 7:17 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 289 of 303 (403681)
06-04-2007 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by riVeRraT
06-04-2007 7:17 PM


Re: The Absolute Moralirty nonsense yet again.
And I think it is all based on what is morally correct.
You need to support that assertion.
It would be immoral to intentionally speed, and then happen to kill someone fromt the speed. IMO.
Sorry but there are too many irrelevant qualifiers in there.
The speed limit does not say "don't intentionally exceed this speed limit and it's okay if it is unintentional."
The speed limit does not say "it's okay to exceed the speed limit if you don't kill someone."
It would be immoral to set the speed limit at 100, when the majority of people do not possess the car, or the ability to do it safely, and even if they did, the guy next to them wouldn't, and could get in theri way.
However, what you posted simply supports my position that the speed limit is relative and unrelated to morality.
I think you would get your message across (whatever that is)better without name calling.
ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!
Excuse me?
Someone totally misrepresents what I post, as well as misrepresents what I believe, then implies that my marriage is or was based on "callow grounds" and you get upset when I post "Way to show the Christian Cult of Ignorance mindset nem."
Way too funny.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by riVeRraT, posted 06-04-2007 7:17 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by riVeRraT, posted 06-05-2007 8:40 AM jar has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 293 of 303 (403687)
06-04-2007 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by ringo
06-04-2007 8:20 PM


Re: Re-Evidence
Read the thread. You have to understand what it means to "believe".
And the rest of John 3 to find out what "condemned" means.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by ringo, posted 06-04-2007 8:20 PM ringo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by ICANT, posted 06-04-2007 10:26 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 296 of 303 (403727)
06-04-2007 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by ICANT
06-04-2007 10:26 PM


Re: Re-Evidence
No need. John 3 only speaks of actions, behavior. And in addition, condemnation is not related to salvation, but only behavior.
The evidence of any belief is the way a person behaves, their acts and actions.
Further, Matthew 25 and other scripture make it quite clear that belief in Jesus, or even the profession of belief in Jesus is valueless and of no worth.
In the context of this thread, Creation as in Biblical Creation is totally unsupported by any evidence and in fact totally refuted by the evidence available.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by ICANT, posted 06-04-2007 10:26 PM ICANT has not replied

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