EvC Forum: "Evidence and Faith"

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Topic: "Evidence and Faith"

ringo

Member (Idle past 442 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 268 of 303 (403586)
06-04-2007 10:38 AM

Reply to: Message 266 by riVeRraT
06-04-2007 10:00 AM

riVeRraT writes:

You are dead wrong ringo. Especially if we are using the bible as a reference for this.

As anybody can see, I am using the Bible - and a direct quote at that - which shows plainly that the judgement is based only on actions and not on beliefs. Nothing you have said changes what Jesus said in Matthew 25.

Your quotes from Mark and John hang on the word "believe" and we've been around that maypole before. What does "believe" mean?

Believing in somebody means doing what He asked you to do.

Saying "Lord, Lord" is not evidence of belief. Only actions are evidence of belief.

quote:
Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

quote:
Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

quote:
Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Judgement is by evidence. If the actions aren't there, neither is the faith. If the actions are there, so is the faith, for all practical purposes, whether it is professed or not.

But the judgement is based on the evidence, the actions - not the faith.

You have no way of knowing what God will decide.

Yes you do. It is the whole reason why Jesus came, and died for us.

Nonsense.

Jesus said specifically, that some who "know" they are saved are not and that some who "know" they are condemned are not. How much plainer can it get? They don't know - they only think they know.

Aren't you even a little embarassed about denying what Jesus said, peTeRraT?

You are only picking some aspects of what He said, and ignoring all the rest.

You're quite welcome to show what I've ignored instead of just proclaiming it. This thread is about evidence, after all.

Edited by Ringo, : Corrected exotic spelling.

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This message is a reply to:
	Message 266 by riVeRraT, posted 06-04-2007 10:00 AM		riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 269 by riVeRraT, posted 06-04-2007 11:05 AM		ringo has replied

ringo

Member (Idle past 442 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 273 of 303 (403614)
06-04-2007 1:34 PM

Reply to: Message 269 by riVeRraT
06-04-2007 11:05 AM

riVeRraT writes:

We are talking about people who do the actions, and clearly do not believe in God.

"We" are not talking about any such thing.

"I" am saying that "we" have no way of knowing that anybody "clearly does not believe in God". The only way "we" can guess at anybody's beliefs is by observing their actions.

Jesus said you must be born again to enter into heaven, what do you think that means?

Being born again means starting a new life with a new attitude.

The problem some people have with the concept is in thinking of it a a one-time thing. But the very word "again" suggests repetition.

You've heard the expression, "Today is the first day of the rest of your life." That's what it means to be born again: to begin every day fresh, to examine your life every day and adjust your attitude every day.

There's nothing spooky about being "born again" and nothing magic about being "saved". It's about what you do. It's about learning from your mistakes.

It's not something that God does for you. It's what you do.

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This message is a reply to:
	Message 269 by riVeRraT, posted 06-04-2007 11:05 AM		riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 277 by riVeRraT, posted 06-04-2007 3:26 PM		ringo has replied

ringo

Member (Idle past 442 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 274 of 303 (403616)
06-04-2007 1:40 PM

Reply to: Message 270 by Equinox
06-04-2007 12:33 PM

Re: Holy struggle - Mt vs. Paul

Equinox writes:

You guys are running around in circles because you are trying to get a coherent message out of the Bible.

You can't talk to fundies unless you accept the premise that there is a coherent message.

The best I can hope for is to convert one or two of them from Paulians to Christians.

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This message is a reply to:
	Message 270 by Equinox, posted 06-04-2007 12:33 PM		Equinox has replied

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	Message 275 by Equinox, posted 06-04-2007 2:00 PM		ringo has not replied

ringo

Member (Idle past 442 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 278 of 303 (403638)
06-04-2007 4:12 PM

Reply to: Message 277 by riVeRraT
06-04-2007 3:26 PM

riVeRraT writes:

First you say we know people by there actions, now we are guessing?

There's no contradiction. We can only guess at anybody's motivations/beliefs - the only information we have to go on is their actions. What they claim to believe has no value if it conflicts with their actions.

I am talking about someone who comes to you, and says, I do not believe in God.

What about them? What does saying they don't believe in God have to do with what kind of person they are?

He clearly professes to not believe in God, or as he would probably put it, God does not exist, so there is nothing to believe in.

I saw him on TV, he only wants to do good, because it is a good idea.

And so what? Doing good is what counts, not "why" he does good.

Remember, I am not one of those that thinks just because you don't believe, means you are going to hell.

Then how can you say that beliefs have any significance toward salvation?

Yes, it is learning from your mistakes, and God points them out to you.

Cop out. The knowledge of good and evil makes us responsible for recognizing our own mistakes. That's the reason for the lack of ethical standards among so many professing Christians: they wait for God to point out what they should be seeing for themselves.

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This message is a reply to:
	Message 277 by riVeRraT, posted 06-04-2007 3:26 PM		riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 279 by riVeRraT, posted 06-04-2007 5:12 PM		ringo has replied

ringo

Member (Idle past 442 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 281 of 303 (403663)
06-04-2007 5:41 PM

Reply to: Message 279 by riVeRraT
06-04-2007 5:12 PM

riVeRraT writes:

Then how can you say that beliefs have any significance toward salvation?

I am only speaking of myself when I say that.
I know what happened to me, and God made Himself very apparent in my life. For me to deny Him now would be like denying this forum. The worst I could do is be angry at Him.

That's not what you've been saying though. You've been claiming that people's motivations matter and that their beliefs matter. You've been sighing your little lungs out every time I showed you that Jesus said the opposite.

Now you're claiming that only riVeRraT's motivations matter? That only riVeRraT's beliefs matter? And only to riVeRraT, apparently?

So you agree then that anybody - Christian or non-Christian - can get to heaven? Based on what, if not their beliefs? Their actions?

What have I been saying all along?

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This message is a reply to:
	Message 279 by riVeRraT, posted 06-04-2007 5:12 PM		riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 287 by riVeRraT, posted 06-04-2007 7:12 PM		ringo has replied

ringo

Member (Idle past 442 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 290 of 303 (403684)
06-04-2007 7:58 PM

Reply to: Message 287 by riVeRraT
06-04-2007 7:12 PM

riVeRraT writes:

I do believe that it matters to God though, and the bible will agree.

I do not think that faith alone, or acts alone is right. I think it is both.

It still comes down to the same bottom line: if anybody can get into heaven without believing in God, then beliefs don't count.

Atheism will win out over religion, but when it is all said and done, people will be left empty inside, once religion is defeated, and a hunger for God will still exist.

Some of the most empty people I've ever met were professing Christians. Letting go of "religion" is one of the most liberating and satisfying experiences that a person can have.

I believe the Holy Spirit enables me to see people the way God sees tham....

I believe elephants are made of chocolate.

I could probably back it up biblically, but it is not necessary.

I could back it up with quotes from The Last of the Mohicans but I don't wanna.

You just thought I was judging people based on their beliefs....

I didn't say one single solitary word about you judging people. You can judge people based on their shoe size for all I care.

I was talking about God judging people.

I know what you have been saying all along, and I wasn't disagreeing with you.

So, when you told me I was contradicting myself, which contradiction were you not disagreeing with?

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This message is a reply to:
	Message 287 by riVeRraT, posted 06-04-2007 7:12 PM		riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 299 by riVeRraT, posted 06-05-2007 8:49 AM		ringo has not replied

ringo

Member (Idle past 442 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 292 of 303 (403686)
06-04-2007 8:20 PM

Reply to: Message 291 by ICANT
06-04-2007 8:08 PM

Re: Re-Evidence

ICANT writes:

RR I would like to see the scripture that trumps: John 3:18

Read the thread. You have to understand what it means to "believe".

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This message is a reply to:
	Message 291 by ICANT, posted 06-04-2007 8:08 PM		ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 293 by jar, posted 06-04-2007 8:31 PM	ringo has not replied
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