Heaven Prerequisites According to Mike

Was browsing an old thread and came across this from Mike the Wiz: If I'm reading this right, Mike seems to be saying that it's not necessary to believe that Jesus was the son of God and that he died for our sins, just to acknowledge that it might have happened, and thank God just in case. I'm not sure if Mike still posts here but I'd like to know if this is just a personal belief of his, or if it is shared by most/all Christians. Thanks.------------------
"Ah, there's nothing more exciting than science. You get all the fun of... sitting still, being quiet, writing down numbers, paying attention... Science has it all."
- Seymour Skinner, The Simpsons

__[This message has been edited by kevstersmith, 09-13-2003]

Eximius,I think you are reading that right and personally I don't think what he is suggesting is scripturally sound. I think God actually has to move on a person's heart and reveal their need for Him before a sinner's prayer or something to that effect will do any good.Therefore, I can tell you this doctorine isn't shared by all Christian's, but I'm not sure I can tell you how many do in terms of a minority or majority.Respectfully[This message has been edited by kevstersmith, 09-13-2003]

Actually, I was suggesting to the (non believing) that they should be open minded.
I, personally have not and never will judge anyone's case for entering or not entering heaven. But I was (I admitt) trying to get non believers to consider Jesus. I was trying to get them to pray to him, because I know they would get a response.'I think you are reading that right and personally I don't think what he is suggesting is scripturally sound.'Then I am completely wrong in my rambling. However my only wish was to get people to try to pray, I never said this was anything other than opinion.'If I'm reading this right, Mike seems to be saying that it's not necessary to believe that Jesus was the son of God and that he died for our sins, 'Absolutely wrong, I am not saying that, I will NOT judge anyone. All I am saying is that if you want to go to heaven, you have to be right with God. I am saying this, not because I say but because God says, in his word that Jesus is the one who will judge us. I tell you this not because I judge you, but because I know God will judge you. I also warn people not to sin like we all do, and to seek repentance. Now I regret your qoute because it has not achieved what I wanted it to.
I absolutely believe it necessary to believe Jesus is the son of God, and I do believe he is the son of God.[This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 09-14-2003]

Now read this:'I suppose you could say [God] doesn't want anyone to go to [heaven] if they dont even akcnowledge even the possibility that he died for them. I mean it's not a lot to ask when you think about it properly.'How on earth do you sum up that I meant you don't need God?

Your point is well taken Mike, thanks for the response. A more appropriate prayer might be something along the lines of "God, if you are real and Jesus is the only way to you please reveal this, and my need for you, to me."Respectfully

Amen.

Because you also said "in a whole lifetime 10 seconds of prayer on that 'possibility' if you are not certain, is not a bad deal." The key word there is "possibility" rather than "certainty". I know now that's not exactly what you meant, so thanks for clearing that up, but it is a crucial difference and I was curious.As an agnostic I have no trouble believing in the possibility that Jesus was the son of God etc, but if I'm asked to believe 100%, no questions asked, I can't do it, so I guess there's still no hope for me. . . *sigh* ------------------
"Ah, there's nothing more exciting than science. You get all the fun of... sitting still, being quiet, writing down numbers, paying attention... Science has it all."
- Seymour Skinner, The Simpsons

Hi Eximus,
Yes I admitt this is all my fault because I usually end up tongue tied.
You highlighted possibility, I should have been clearer,
'if you are not certain'- IF YOU ARE UNBELIEVING - I meant a possibility in an unbelieving mind. Christ is a certainty in my own mind.
Mike.

I've been making this prayer for quite some time. How do I know when god has answered me? I know how fallible human thoughts and emotions are and I know that wanting something to be true doesn't make it true. So how can I know for sure?I can't use the bible because it was written by fallible men and just because they claim it was divinely inspired doesn't mean it is. My heart has betrayed me many times so if God speaks to my heart how do I know it's him? I have a problem with faith because faith requires belief without evidence but if there was evidence I wouldn't need faith.But alas, God doesn't seem to be performing miracles anymore so I can't use the Gideon's fleece trick either.I guess that I too am a lost cause.

Good question, although I'm not sure you'll find my answer to be satisfactory. My answer partly hinges on the theme of predestination I see in scripture. If you are in fact one of those he has called to himself you'll ultimately be led to profess a sinners prayer or something to that affect acknowledging your sinfulness and need for repentance, forgiveness (through Christ's blood on the cross), and the new life he offers in the person of the Holy Spirit. If and when this happens you'll become born again and receive a spiritual nature that you've never known before. There really is no mistaking this as suddenly behavior that used to not bother you will suddenly start making you uneasy.However, if you aren't one of the called you'll never know the joy exerienced by receiving the Spirit of God. And praying such prayers will never be productive.In John 6:37 Jesus states: No one can come unless the father who sent me, draws him.I can appreciate how unfair this may seem as none of us that we're chosen were called into the family of God on merit. The elect we're simply let off the hook for the punishment they were created to deserve since the fall of man. This isn't an easy pill for me to swallow as there are inevitably people I know and care about that share the fate of being damned. I think it is impossible to accept and rely on the validity of the bible unless one has been born of the spirit as Jesus describes in John 3. Unless that happens it will continue to appear to be utter nonsense.A friend at my church relayed to me a story that might help illustrate this. The process of her becoming a Christian extended over some period of time. Prior to her being led to pray the sinners prayer and receiving the spiritual birth she recanted the story of trying to read parts of the bible and concluding that she couldn't reconcile or make sense of any of it, thinking my goodness, this is the book I'm supposed to rely on? A short time later she experienced the spiritual birth and not long after tried reading the bible again. This time the words appeared to be leaping off the page to her as she had been given the required spiritual discernment to appreciate it.The point here is that unless you become born of the spirit it is pointless for me to try to prove the validity of scripture to you. Again, if you are one of those called there will be no mistaking this. In John 6:44 Jesus essentially says, "All that the father gives me will come to me." Therefore if you have been called there isn't a chance of your falling through the cracks. Not sure you know this but you've hit upon what I think to be a major spiritual truth here. That being, faith in Christ cannot be self generated, rather it is a gift received by the elect. Faith is the evidence of things unseen. I know of many miracles in my church, ranging from some people being freed from substance abuses, sexual sins and addictions, healed marriages, etc. In my case I would submit to you that but for the grace of God freeing my from various sins, I would probably be in jail right now instead of corresponding with you in an internet forum. I think only God knows for sure which are lost causes. For humans to guess is highly speculative. From my perspective there is still hope for those that still have breath in them.Respectfully

Hi,Can I ask a few questions about this? If everyone who is to be saved are predestined to be saved then I see four problems:1. What was the point of Jesus' death, if there are presaved people then they are saved regardless of whether Jesus died on the cross or not.2. These 'elect' can sin away to their heart's content until God decides that the 'born again' phenomenon come upon them.3. It also means that God creates people with the sole purpose of sending them to Hell.4. There is now no such thng as free will.If your interpretation is true then we can really do anything we want until we get the 'call' from God, it is virtually a license to kill!Brian.[This message has been edited by Brian, 09-15-2003]

First, thanks for your inquiries. Concerning why Jesus died I would say that Christian's weren't so much presaved as they were destined to be saved. This might seem like a small distinction, but considering God required a perfect sacrifice to reconcile the elect to himself, the event of Jesus being crucified was necessary as is the initial sinners prayer (or something to that affect) that invites the Spirit of God into a soon to be Christian's life. Predestination simply says this will happen for the elect and nothing can stop it. On this I would note that the elect don't know they are going to be part of the elect in advance. Therefore the scenario of one purposefully planning on sinning 'til their heart's content isn't plausible. On the other hand, according to scripture, all of mankind (including the elect) are up to their ears in sin. We just don't think of our activities and motives as being sinful unless God himself reveals this to us. I think this is accurate. Please understand that I relay this to you with humility. I understand full well that on my own merits I don't deserve to be one of the elect. I'm not in a position to thumb my nose at those not saved, rather I'm called to pray for and petition God on their behalf. Also, don't lose site of the possibility that if there is still breath in you or anyone else for that matter, there may still be hope.I think Romans 9:17-24 illustrates this rather clearly, "For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, " FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles." There may be an element of free will within the confines of what one has been destined to become, namely saved or unsaved. But in terms of becoming saved or remaining unsaved, I don't think there is free will.I should note that not all Christian's believe in predestination. Personally, I know of many that don't. I, however, think the bible clearly says otherwise. I wouldn't go so far as saying unsaved mankind has a license to kill. Certainly there are temporal or societal consequences that one has to deal with. But from a biblical perspective I think there will be varying degrees of punishment. In Revelation it is noted that each will be judged according to his deeds.Respectfully

If I may jump in here for a minute, the 4 problems that you listed are, in my opinion, valid; but there are some others as well:1 - If predestination exists, what is the purpose of evangelism? Missionaries are wasting their time, are they not?2 - John 3:16 says (in part)" whosoever believes in Him (Jesus) shall not perish, but have everlasting life." Sounds to me that it is a choice independent of destiny.

Hi, Key!I have a question regarding the following: For what purpose? The suffering of millions for his glory? I respectfully have to say that if this is God's nature, I want nothing to do with him. It also, in my opinion, cheapens the sacrifice of Jesus; why did he die for the sins of the world (John 3:16, 2 Peter 3:9) if only a few are actually chosen?
Thank you in advance for your reply.