Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,910 Year: 4,167/9,624 Month: 1,038/974 Week: 365/286 Day: 8/13 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Heaven Prerequisites According to Mike
Rei
Member (Idle past 7043 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 91 of 110 (76290)
01-02-2004 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by mike the wiz
01-02-2004 4:43 PM


And Mike, I offer you a 10 second prayer, that if you go to Hades for your hubris, my only thought is your highlighted smiley face. Need it happen? - Is belief in a religion other than the Greek Pantheon so important?

"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by mike the wiz, posted 01-02-2004 4:43 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by mike the wiz, posted 01-02-2004 5:26 PM Rei has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4755
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 92 of 110 (76296)
01-02-2004 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Rei
01-02-2004 4:59 PM


I Meant It
Bzzzzzzzt.Preachers wager.
It is my duty to preach the Gospel, is YOUR concern genuine? - I doubt this somehow, you know better Rei, you know better. My post was serious, hubris and hades ?
Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Nevertheless, glad to see you're back.
Is belief in a religion other than the Greek Pantheon so important?
I am not talking about religion, I don't go to church - I am talking about belief
[This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 01-02-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Rei, posted 01-02-2004 4:59 PM Rei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Rei, posted 01-02-2004 6:52 PM mike the wiz has replied
 Message 96 by Rrhain, posted 01-02-2004 7:20 PM mike the wiz has not replied
 Message 107 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-05-2004 1:10 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4755
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 93 of 110 (76298)
01-02-2004 5:57 PM


I've admitted Science is different from Faith, yet you remain of a stubborn and self righteouss nature, being a law unto yourself, how long shall we bare your hard of heart unbelief?
How long will God let me spend on you, shall he pour water on the desert floor? I ask him, "May I pour water in a plentious place, where people shall drink of it". How long shall you deny the truth. I have admitted it is down to belief - not evidence, yet you waste my genuine message, how long shall the Arks door be ajar, one day it will close, will we listen to you then? You talk to me like a change costs you a painful death on a cross, yet the gift is free, even offered for free of the Master. Don't you see, I cannot tell you the truth when the lights go out, I will have no power to tell you anything. God, how long shall my tree bare no fruit? One day the water will be poured upon a grateful tongue, in a plentious place and you will weary me no more. Then, will fruit be seen.

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Rrhain, posted 01-02-2004 7:24 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 94 of 110 (76299)
01-02-2004 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Stephen ben Yeshua
01-02-2004 3:02 PM


Re: Good Guys with Surnames
Stephen ben Yeshua suggests, "Really, ask around and see if anyone familiar would think of Peter as the fellow's first or last name. I'd like to know how others sense it, intuitively."
Stephen, I surveyed the masses. Here are the results:
87.8% Men preferred "Peter Simon"
92.4% Women preferred "Rock Shimon"
79.8% Eunucks preferred "Simon Peter"
Magdalene may be more of a title than a surname anyway. I'm still looking into that one.
Peace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-02-2004 3:02 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has not replied

  
Rei
Member (Idle past 7043 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 95 of 110 (76305)
01-02-2004 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by mike the wiz
01-02-2004 5:26 PM


Re: I Meant It
Yeah, X-mas break can make anyone dissapear hehe
You state:
"Jesus Christ is the Son of God"
And your evidence for this, apart from the multi-millenia old writings of a small Greek cult's books (assembled by committee) and the cult's contemporaries, that just happened to be adopted by the leader of the eastern Roman empire?
If you want to make your Preacher's Wager, you better be able to back up the claim

"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by mike the wiz, posted 01-02-2004 5:26 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by mike the wiz, posted 01-02-2004 7:42 PM Rei has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 96 of 110 (76309)
01-02-2004 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by mike the wiz
01-02-2004 5:26 PM


Re: I Meant It
mike the wiz responds to Rei:
quote:
Preachers wager.
But you make the same argument.
So if it is invalid when it applies to someone who doesn't share your theology, it is just as invalid when it applies to someone who does.
quote:
quote:
Is belief in a religion other than the Greek Pantheon so important?
I am not talking about religion, I don't go to church - I am talking about belief
Who's talking about church? I don't see anything in Rei's statement about going to church. It's about belief. The second word in the sentence you quoted was "belief"...did you miss it?
I know some actual pagans who believe in the Greek pantheon. Why would you deny them?

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by mike the wiz, posted 01-02-2004 5:26 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 97 of 110 (76310)
01-02-2004 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by mike the wiz
01-02-2004 5:57 PM


mike the wiz writes:
quote:
How long will God let me spend on you, shall he pour water on the desert floor? I ask him, "May I pour water in a plentious place, where people shall drink of it". How long shall you deny the truth. I have admitted it is down to belief - not evidence, yet you waste my genuine message, how long shall the Arks door be ajar, one day it will close, will we listen to you then? You talk to me like a change costs you a painful death on a cross, yet the gift is free, even offered for free of the Master. Don't you see, I cannot tell you the truth when the lights go out, I will have no power to tell you anything. God, how long shall my tree bare no fruit? One day the water will be poured upon a grateful tongue, in a plentious place and you will weary me no more. Then, will fruit be seen.
Logical error: Circular argument.
You're saying god will only deal with those who believe but you don't believe until god deals with you.
quote:
You talk to me like a change costs you a painful death on a cross, yet the gift is free, even offered for free of the Master.
BZZZZZT!
Pascal's Wager.

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by mike the wiz, posted 01-02-2004 5:57 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by mike the wiz, posted 01-02-2004 7:38 PM Rrhain has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4755
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 98 of 110 (76313)
01-02-2004 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Rrhain
01-02-2004 7:24 PM


I was not arguing, I was ranting. At no one in particular, except maybe God
BZZZZZT!
Pascal's Wager.
Lol
You're saying god will only deal with those who believe but you don't believe until god deals with you.
No, I do believe, I just can't believe your stubborn unbelief.
But you make the same argument.
Christ said preach the Gospel, that's the difference.
[This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 01-02-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Rrhain, posted 01-02-2004 7:24 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Rrhain, posted 01-02-2004 8:00 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4755
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 99 of 110 (76314)
01-02-2004 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Rei
01-02-2004 6:52 PM


Re: I Meant It
And your evidence for this, apart from the multi-millenia old writings
'apart from' does not mean it isn't evidence. But I am not trying to convince anyone with evidence, nevertheless, I know it's about belief. In this case you've taken it and ran, the actual message to Mr Hambre did not mention evidence.
BUT I genuinly meant it. Are you genuine about Hubris? - Ofcourse not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Rei, posted 01-02-2004 6:52 PM Rei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Rei, posted 01-05-2004 12:48 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 100 of 110 (76318)
01-02-2004 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by mike the wiz
01-02-2004 7:38 PM


mike the wiz responds to me:
quote:
quote:
But you make the same argument.
Christ said preach the Gospel, that's the difference.
So do other religions. Why do we believe you over them?
What does Christ's admonition to proselytize have to do with anything?

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by mike the wiz, posted 01-02-2004 7:38 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by mike the wiz, posted 01-02-2004 8:19 PM Rrhain has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4755
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 101 of 110 (76319)
01-02-2004 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Rrhain
01-02-2004 8:00 PM


So do other religions. Why do we believe you over them?
Because I am not asking you to be religious for a start.
Oh, come on Rrhain, there's never ever been anyone like Christ before, there is absolutely no way Christ is all some coincidence along with a "chance" existence. If you can't see the difference between his words and other "religions" words, I'm indeed shocked. If you put it all together, yes, maybe I don't have the right to say you can believe this more than that But I AM confident you will see the difference between Christ and the others. - This is VERY hard to explain to you, I wish I could put it together better. Your left with a fool to preach to you.
"Neither do I condemn you"
"serve one another, love your enemy"!!!!
"Blessed is he that hath NOT SEEN yet he believes"
"If you do this to the least of me, you do it to me"
"If you don't believ me believe the works"
(these are from memory, could be innacurate) - Surely Christ did not come as a devouring Lion Rrhain, you yourself said Jesus doesn't need me, I agree just look at his words, and marvel!
Surely you can see some difference with your intelligence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Rrhain, posted 01-02-2004 8:00 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Rrhain, posted 01-02-2004 8:29 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 102 of 110 (76320)
01-02-2004 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by mike the wiz
01-02-2004 8:19 PM


mike the wiz responds to me:
quote:
quote:
So do other religions. Why do we believe you over them?
Because I am not asking you to be religious for a start.
You do when you condemn people to hell:
if people do go to hell for unbelief
You do when you ask them to change their minds:
Is the unbelief so important?
quote:
Oh, come on Rrhain, there's never ever been anyone like Christ before
Oh please. Jesus is nothing more than rewarmed Mithra/Dionysus/Osiris mythology. There's a reason that Joseph Campbell came up with his study of common themes in mythology. Jesus doesn't do anything new.
quote:
there is absolutely no way Christ is all some coincidence along with a "chance" existence.
It never occurred to you that Jesus might never have existed at all but was simply made up like all the others? We can't find any record of anybody having talked to him while he was supposedly alive. We can't find any record of his death. And despite the fact that he supposedly nearly caused a revolution, nobody seems to have noticed.
quote:
If you can't see the difference between his words and other "religions" words, I'm indeed shocked.
Since other religions make the same claim to you, how is anybody supposed to be able to judge between you?
quote:
just look at his words, and marvel!
But most of the stuff supposedly attributed to him was never said by him and even then, he didn't say anything new.
quote:
Surely you can see some difference with your intelligence.
Nope...I see nothing but a perverted Miller Light commercial. "More holy!" "Saves great!" "More holy!" "Saves great!"

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by mike the wiz, posted 01-02-2004 8:19 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by mike the wiz, posted 01-02-2004 8:40 PM Rrhain has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4755
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 103 of 110 (76322)
01-02-2004 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Rrhain
01-02-2004 8:29 PM


Fell on deaf ears........debate over.
Obviously your mind is made up. My job is to preach the Gospel, not repeat it over and over, or pour water in a desert. Yet you hound me, from a message to Mr Hambre.
What do you seek of me? You still think I am judging you to hell, and I am perverse.
It never occurred to you that Jesus might never have existed at all
If his name never existed, I would indeed re-think God. But it did, it does. - Jesus Christ, I marvel even when I hear his name.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Rrhain, posted 01-02-2004 8:29 PM Rrhain has not replied

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 104 of 110 (76464)
01-04-2004 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by MrHambre
01-02-2004 4:39 PM


Au contraire....
MrHambre,
The definition of materialism I was using is the idea that the electro-magnetic world, thought of as "material," is all there is, is an -ism. Granted, many materialists get selfish (why not?) in a materialistic agenda. And, the religious liars want us to believe that the spiritual life is self-less.
But, the God of the Bible's advice is quite clearly selfish, at least to half of why we do anything. We obey God, "that we may prosper." We seek Him, because "there is pleasure at His right hand forever." We give that "it might be given to us." We love others "as we love ourselves." We forgive, "that we might be forgiven." We don't judge others, only ourselves, "that we might not be judged." We repent, so we can enter the kingdom of God. We follow Yeshua, so that we can become fishers of men. And so on.
Yeshua is great on this point. Whatever we give up to follow Him, we get back in this world 100 fold, plus eternal life. It was testing these propositions, especially the one on titheing, that persuaded me that the orthodox theology hypothesis was plausibly true.
But, I did have to give up, reluctantly, arrogance, believing that I was near the top of the biological heap, that I was God, that I had no Satan (Descartian evil genius) to deal with, some other pet notions that I comforted myself with. These all got replaced with something similar, however, that actually was more enjoyable.
So, Hell and Heaven are only part of the picture.
Stephen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by MrHambre, posted 01-02-2004 4:39 PM MrHambre has not replied

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 105 of 110 (76614)
01-05-2004 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by MrHambre
01-02-2004 3:16 PM


Re: A Skeptic's Response
MrHambre,
You say:
I honestly don't get the logic behind Jesus's sacrifice: Jesus suffered on the cross to save my life, but I can still burn in Hell? In other words, He's forgiven all my debts, so I owe Him bigtime?
Here are three truths I think we can agree on:
All truth is reasonable, or logical.
Understanding the logic (if any) behind any statement postulated as true is essential to evaluating the truth of that statement.
The statement, "Jesus died on the cross to save my life." is postulated as true, and, if true, is relevant to the task of deciding whether biological diversity came about through a willful creation, or natural selection operating on random mutations. This relevance stems both from the fact that the statement is biblical, hence relevant to the veracity of the bible from whence we have the idea of creation, and that, without your life, you are unable to examine the truth of any statement.
OK so far? I would hope, of course, that you would want to understand the logic of the cross simply on cultural grounds. An lot of our history has stemmed from an understanding of this matter.
The logic begins with an ontological model of the universe, supposing that it is a created entity, created by a personality with an agenda. We understand "created entity" largely by analogy with our own creations. The creator's manual for the proper understanding and use of His creation is a book called the Bible, wherein we find that one main purpose of His agenda is to create beings, other personalities, with free will, the freedom at least to operate within the purpose of the creator for the rest of His creation, or not. Every one of these beings, of course, in using that free will, remains partly within the purpose of the creation for themselves, since that purpose was largely to see what they would choose. But, only largely. Each of these free-will created persons (some angels, some humans) had other purposes as well, which they either choose or reject. When they reject these other purposes, they cause havoc, death to other parts of the creation that they were supposed, or created, to protect or husband or otherwise interact with productively. When they reject doing the job they were created to do, they are thought to justly deserve a consequence comparable to that which came about due to their not doing that job. For example, in the military, a man assigned to keep watch chooses to abandon his post. An enemy therefore slips in and kills dozens of soldiers who were sleeping, trusting that the watch would awake them and warn them of danger. The man who deserted his watch is therefore shot. We normally consider, in fact, that desertion from an army, even a conscripted one, justly deserves the death penalty.
Hence, all humans who are deserters from God's (militaristic) purpose in creating them, insofar as their desertion caused, or even might have caused, others to die, deserves to die themselves.
But, there's more to this. After our desertion, we got captured by God's enemy, so the story goes, and became slaves to someone who was out to destroy the creation because they hated (by choice) the creator. That enemy uses us to mess up the creation, and messes us up as part of their own destructive agenda. The creator, it turns out, can purchase us out of the POW camp where we are being kept and used and abused. The enemy is willing to make a deal.
Now, the creator would like to have us "saved and come to a knowledge of the truth," to get back to work fulfilling the purpose for which we were created. But, for this to happen, we have to be bought out of the enemy's camp, and then we have to deal with our court martial for the original desertion, and acts of compliance with the enemy in the POW camp. The system of justice that was set up by the creator allows for what Yeshua did at the cross to accomplish both purposes. Thus, because of what happened at the cross, you and I and everyone else are set back at the way it was before we (or our fathers; most of us were born in the POW camp) deserted. Moreover, we are declared "not guilty" for whatever happened while we were POW's. (Redemption is purchase from the POW camp. Salvation is being freed from any court martial consequences of our bad behavior.)
But, being back at ground zero, we again have to deal with our own free will choice. Will we choose to desert again? God, so the story goes, wants us and will be grieved if we decide that we don't want Him. But it would be unjust to force us against our free will to be with Him. Although an important part of our purpose in this world is to save it and our neighbors from evil, the main thing is, what will we choose? The freedom to choose never goes away, so that if we use it to reject loving God, so be it. But, the legal consequences of that choice don't go away either.
Here's a relevant example: The title of these comments is "Re: A Skeptic's Response?"
But skepticism, like military desertion, has a remarkable record of killing innocent people. For example, James Lind wrote a treatise on limes and scurvy, which skeptical sea captains ignored for fifty years, until governmental agencies forced the issue. Maybe 100,000 sailors died unnecessary and painful deaths due to this skepticism, maintained I suppose by the "sneer review" system wherein individuals responsible for the ships did not want to appear gullible. ("You don't believe that nonsense, do you?") So, they did not provide their sailors the limes shown by Lind to prevent scurvy. Today, skepticism haunts both prayer and bible code studies, (and, still, vitamin C research) even though all of these have been shown to be potentially able to save many lives, and reduce much suffering, at negligible cost. Just like limes on sailing ships. God created us to believe, not doubt. Skepticism is thus the moral equivalent of military desertion, or so the story goes.
In the end, everyone who ends up in Hell is there because they considered the choice set before them, the costs and benefits, the risks associated with both, and freely made a choice that resulted in that terrible fate. Nobody can take the freedom to make that choice from anyone. However, the enemy of God (Descartes' "evil genius") works very hard to confuse, tempt, deceive, and distract the POW's that he has captive, so that they choose unwisely. That too, is taken into account by the cross, which is why we humans can never judge who is saved or who is not. It is written that the Spirit of God is poured out on all flesh, that everyone in whatever situation has some idea of the choices set before them, for life and good, or death and evil. By the work of the cross, anyone, anywhere, who is dealing with their situation by choosing to resist evil and take up their duty to their creator, ends up in heaven. And those who choose otherwise, risking an eternity in Hell, find their free will and responsibility for their life preserved by the cross. Satan, because of the cross, could not "make them do" the cowardly, foolish, ignorant, unloving, skeptical things they choose to do.
This is a scientific discussion, and this understanding is presented so that, should you decide to put these ideas to a scientific test, you properly understand "the materials and methods" of the test. For example, if you wish to do a prayer experiment, seeing if, as predicted by this hypothesis, prayer to Jehovah results in good changes, you now know something more about what sorts of testimonies need to be made in the prayer, and what sorts of things to pray for, that will bring about, if this story has any truth to it, observable results.
Hope this helps.
Stephen
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by MrHambre, posted 01-02-2004 3:16 PM MrHambre has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024