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Author | Topic: Islam does not hate christianity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
custard Inactive Member |
Embarassingly enough, I have heard some Arabs call Palestinians the hicks of the Arab world. They liken the Palestinian dialect to the lazy english of the deep south. Plus we were mostly poor farmers. In general better educated I think but hick like nontheless. Yeah I saw that a lot as well. There is Arab solidarity with Palestinians when it comes to Israel, but from what I saw Palestinians were definitely viewed as foreigners, mostly for the purposes of cheap, menial labor, and ranked barely above Filipinos and other non-Arab migrant workers on the social scale. That is another reason I find it amazing that anyone could claim there is 'no such thing as a Palestinian." Other Arab populations are quite aware of the distinction. This message has been edited by custard, 02-24-2005 20:17 AM
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1497 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
If you follow up on stuff like this you ALWAYS find out it's a lie. Oh, always? You followed this one up? Or did you just assume that, since Israel cannot err, they must be blameless? As it turns out, you are wrong. A 13-year-old girl was indeed shot repeatedly by an Israeli officer; her family is going ahead with a lawsuit. The press didn't just make it up to besmirch your beloved, can-do-no-wrong Israel.
I don't trust the media No, it's clear that you trust nothing except the Bible and Israel, which you trust absolutely; any evidence that contradicts either of those can be summarily dismissed.
Well, you've bought the Palestinian propaganda so let's say you're naive and don't look into things very carefully. And that's your argument? That, if I looked into things, I would find that Israel is always blameless, and never does anything wrong? Or is that something I have to assume from the outset? The thing is, I used to think like you - I came down on the side of Israel and their right to see to their own security. That was naievete. When I looked into things, carefully, that was when I discovered that neither side was particularly angelic. Let me pose a question - could Israel, in your opinion, ever go to far? Or is there no tactic that Israel could adopt that you would not support in the name of their own security?
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1497 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
A citation on either side would be appreciated. It took me a while to dig up what I was talking about, but I did find it. Her name was Iman al-Hams.
No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.wrmea.com/archives/Jan_Feb_2005/0501009.html quote: Oh, and this is really great. Apparently this girl was the greatest terrorist threat the world has ever known:
quote: I mean, that's the only explanation, right Faith? The beneficent Israelis would never have slaughtered a 13-year-old girl like a beast unless she was a terrorist, right? Because they never act out of anything but their own security, right?
Unless, of course, you're saying that you would refuse to believe it if it could be demonstrated that an innocent civilian were a victim of Israel's military actions. Isn't that exactly what he's said? That if it makes Israel look bad, it's always a lie? This message has been edited by crashfrog, 02-24-2005 21:26 AM
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Morte Member (Idle past 6133 days) Posts: 140 From: Texas Joined: |
Thanks, was just about to do that myself when I read your previous post and then when I found it (had trouble due to not remembering her name) you had posted again. Was only really asking because it would seem quite a double standard to require citation of only one side.
Isn't that exactly what he's said? That if it makes Israel look bad, it's always a lie? I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt - some things are said for emphasis rather than to be taken literally. I try to pick my own word choice carefully to be sure that I don't imply something I don't mean to (especially online, where - as you'll often see here, most notably in the Rrhain/holmes chains - people tend to pick apart everything you say and occasionally even add a meaning that it was quite clear you weren't trying to express). However, I realize that not everyone does this and I slip up myself quite often anyway. Faith, now you have a reference to the killing of this girl. You said in Message 137...
If you follow up on stuff like this you ALWAYS find out it's a lie. I remember this one but I don't remember the details so I will have to track it down again, as obviously nobody here cares to dig up the facts. {Emphasis added.} ...which certainly seems to imply that there's more to this story than what's presented in crashfrog's article. If you cannot present evidence of this and refuse to concede the point, it will only show that you are doing exactly what you accuse your opponents of - exhibiting blind support for one side in the conflict without regard to facts. And a reminder, this was neither an accident nor an isolated incident. See Message 132 and Message 133 for further examples. {Edit for minor clarification.} {Second edit for spelling, I'm a tad obsessive.} This message has been edited by Morte, 02-24-2005 21:51 AM This message has been edited by Morte, 02-24-2005 21:53 AM
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MangyTiger Member (Idle past 6383 days) Posts: 989 From: Leicester, UK Joined: |
I believe that was his point, that the '67 war was the point at which it became a strategy to invent a "Palestinian people." I've only read up to here in the thread so far, so maybe somebody else has already queried this. If the concept of a "Palestinian people" didn't exist until 1967 then how come Fatah was founded in 1959 ? From Wikipedia (and numerous other places on the net) Fatah means something like "the movement for liberation of the Palestinian homeland" or "The Movement for the National Liberation of Palestine". How could you have any kind of Palestinian Homeland or National Liberation if the concept of a Palestinian people didn't exist until eight years later ? It's preposterous. If you look around the net you can repeatedly find this claim that the Palestinians were "invented" in 1967. Most of the sites are pro-Israeli or out and out Zionist, not surprisingly. A good example is Middle East Facts. On their main page is this quote :
This website is dedicated to spreading the truth about Israel and the "Palestinians" (who incidentally didn't call themselves that and didn't have a national movement before 1967).
However they then do a rather excellent job of shooting themselves in the foot. They have lot of stuff about Fateh, including a section reproducing their 1964 Constitution. I quote from the site :
To the Middle East Facts visitor - this document was written in 1964, three years before the so-called "Israeli occupation".
You can then read the Constitution - I think the first two articles are key to this discussion :
Article (1) Palestine is part of the Arab World, and the Palestinian people are part of the Arab Nation, and their struggle is part of its struggle. Article (2) The Palestinian people have an independent identity. They are the sole authority that decides their own destiny, and they have complete sovereignty on all their lands. So there we have it - a pre-1967 document (reproduced on a pro-Israeli site no less) that specifically refers to the Palestinian people. In fact that 1964 Constitution is littered with references to the Palestinian people. As far as I can tell the claim that the Palestinians effectively weren't there before 1967 is pretty much the same sort of thing as the way the white South Africans used to claim the blacks weren't in large parts of the region prior to the Europeans settling. It's a lie and you've been suckered by it. Now what you can say is that 1967 - specifically the aftermath of the 6-day war - marked a sea change in the attitudes of the Palestinians. They had been relying on the other Arab countries to help them, after the war they realised anything they were going to achieve would have to be done by themselves. Confused ? You will be...
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1497 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
...which certainly seems to imply that there's more to this story than what's presented in crashfrog's article. As I read more about this, it may be that Faith is referring to the fact that the two soldiers who said they saw Captain R unload his weapon into her body may have lied because they didn't like the guy. Which seems to be a rather minor point. She was, after all, shot 15 times, well after it had been established that she was an unarmed girl. We have the radio tapes to prove it.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Me, I think both sides are assholes, or have assholes among them, so don't you dare paint me as some kind of anti-semite Palestinian sympathizer. CF, check your message here. It appears you've got posts mixed up as to responses.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
What's the point in demolishing the house where a suicide bomber lived ? Maybe if you lived in a tiny country surrounded by hostile armies sympathetic to these bombers, you'd look at things differenly. Israel, in order to survive MUST take these measures to keep the Jehadists of a territory which still refuses to recognize Israel's right to exist, in tow. It's bad enough as it is, and would be much worse for Israel if these stringent counter offenses weren't maintained. It's like if New Jersy were being threatened by every surrounding state of extinction by terrorism because the other states wanted them all (Jersians) wiped out and citizens from those other states were constantly coming and going into N Jersey. In Jehovah God's Universe; time, energy and boundless space had no beginning and will have no ending. The universe, by and through him, is, has always been and forever will be intelligently designed, changed and managed by his providence. buzsaw
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
quote: Actually, I had checked up on Joan Peters' book myself earlier this evening since it had been a while since I'd read it, and found that it is subject to very valid criticism. But it's not "rubbish." I think this link has the most balanced view of it:
"...indignation has gotten the better of her, and has left this polemic vulnerable on points of fact and interpretation.
This is especially unfortunate because on the central point of her book, the demographic argument, Peters is probably right. She compares late Ottoman population records with subsequent censuses of Palestine conducted by the British, and very convincingly maintains that the remarkable growth of Arab population in areas of Jewish settlement cannot be explained merely by natural increase. In locating the solution in Arab migration, the author has demonstrated resourceful ingenuity. That is not to say that her case is unassailable. True, Ottoman records show that the plains of Palestine were sparsely inhabited less than a century ago. But Peters does not use statistical methods now employed by historians of Ottoman demography to compensate for the usual Ottoman undercounting of certain sub-populations, such as women, children, and nomads. Until these methods are applied, we cannot know whether the undercount in these parts of Palestine was significant or negligible. Peters also omits important explanations of how she resolved problems of comparison between Ottoman and British statistics, which were collected and organized very differently. Peters, then, has not dispelled all nagging doubts. Still, From Time Immemorial raises overdue questions about the demographic history of Palestine in a way that cannot be ignored. http://www.geocities.com/martinkramerorg/Peters.htm
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Jazzns Member (Idle past 3941 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
In other words.
There were people there. And in not insignificant numbers. And these people were native. And they were called Palestinians. And thus you need to start retracting your claim. By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria. -- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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Jazzns Member (Idle past 3941 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
So let me get this straight.
As a Christian, you believe that violence against innocents in response to violence of related individuals is justified? You think that destroying the homes of more people is going to make already pissed off people stop being pissed off? Here is a great idea! In order to make people not want to blow us up, lets attack their women and children! In fact, lets make it a policy! Surely they will see the light of peace! Homelessness IS the path to enlightenment after all! Disgusting. This message has been edited by Jazzns, 02-24-2005 23:01 AM By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria. -- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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custard Inactive Member |
Here is some illuminating information about the population of Palestine before 1967 from http://www.mideastweb.org/palpop.htm.
quote: And here are the census results, from the British Mandate, for 1922 and 1931:
quote: Faith, the British Mandate reported that between 500,000 to 750,000 Palestinian Arabs lived in Palestine before WWII. This is a lot more than a few scattered nomads. This message has been edited by custard to try to format the darn columns so they are legible, 02-25-2005 01:29 AM This message has been edited by custard, 02-25-2005 01:34 AM
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1497 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
CF, check your message here. It appears you've got posts mixed up as to responses. Nobody's called me one, yet. But it's often the inevitable conclusion of any debate vs. Israel's partisans.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1497 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Israel, in order to survive MUST take these measures to keep the Jehadists of a territory which still refuses to recognize Israel's right to exist, in tow. What, in your view, gives a country the "right to exist"?
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custard Inactive Member |
Faith,
Look, you are correct when you state that a Palestinian national identity is a fairly recent phenomenon historically speaking, but your dates are way off. 1967 is a bogus date because there is evidence that there were stirrings of Palestinian nationalism as early as the nineteenth century Again from http://www.mideastweb.org/palrevolt.htm
quote: I think the date might be more accurately pegged during the time of the British Mandate, but I think these types of incidents might be comparable to early colonial attitudes in the US where the colonies began to see themselves as 'Americans' even before they declared independence from Britain. Here's a more concrete example of Palestinians exerting self-determination:
quote: There's UN resolution 181 again. What other proof do you have so support your position that Palestinians did not see themselves as a distinct group, indiginous to that region until 1967? So far you've only given us the quotes of some Jordanian guy. I've shown UN documents, links to historical sites, and British Mandate docs which all support the argument that a Palestinian national identity began forming as early as the nineteenth century, but definitely became tangible during the British Mandate. This message has been edited by custard, 02-25-2005 02:07 AM This message has been edited by custard, 02-25-2005 02:10 AM
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