Islam does not hate christianity

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That is correct, and it was written in order to teach something about the moral nature of the universe you live in

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How can that be when it runs so clearly counter to our own moral sense?

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Our moral sense is fallen. We reject anything that hurts us of course. We don't want to be punished for sin. We hate the idea of Hell. But those are reasons God needed to give us His revelation, to inform us, to warn us away from the terrible consequences of sin. The entire Bible is such a warning and instruction.

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God's justice is terrible but right.

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By what moral reasoning? Or is it only "right" because God is God, and anything he does must be right?

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It's right because it's right, but we can't start out accepting the Bible in the parts that talk about God's punishments. We aren't built that way. One only comes to accept the hard stuff after getting to know God's goodness and mercy and love, and then we are humbled from our own moral high horse and can say that we know God is right in all His judgments and we defer to His judgments because He is good whether we understand it all or not. If you don't KNOW He is good from other evidence, it will always be hard to accept what your fallen mind rejects. Jesus quoted from just about the entire Old Testament after all, identified Himself as the God who inspired it, and He rebuked His followers who had any impulses toward violence.

How can mercy, fairness, and forbearance be a fallen condition?That's what we're arguing about, after all. God says these children need to be slaughtered; we disagree. And somehow it's our moral sense that is fallen, that is degenerate? How can you fall your way to virtue? How does that make any sense? How can we be expected to come to understand the goodness and mercy and love of God if these are not traits that he exemplifies? You commit a grave error of circular reasoning, here. You assume that God is loving, and conclude that the slaughter of the children was an act of love. But the only reasonable conclusion is that the slaughter of the children demonstrates that God is not loving.

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Our moral sense is fallen.

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How can mercy, fairness, and forbearance be a fallen condition?

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They aren't our own moral sense by a long shot, they are hard-won virtues. They come from God. Hardly anybody lives up to them. I suspect that in fact you are misapplying them. A society can't let sociopaths go free to harm people. That's not mercy, that's simply a violation of justice. You can't forbear crimes against others, that's a violation of justice. God gave His law and clearly defined the just consequences of disobedience. He never acts whimsically. People always know what they are getting into.

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That's what we're arguing about, after all. God says these children need to be slaughtered; we disagree. And somehow it's our moral sense that is fallen, that is degenerate? How can you fall your way to virtue?

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There is no virtue in your moral sense. That's where you have to start. You have to realize you are wrong, but you think you are right. So did the people in the time of Judges "who did what was right in their own eyes" instead of what was right in God's eyes. We have a terrible time understanding why God has children die, but I don't expect to understand it, simply say I know God is good. As I said it can't be understood until you first realize that He is good. I'd add you also need to realize that you are wrong, a sinner, not the righteous person you think you are.

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One only comes to accept the hard stuff after getting to know God's goodness and mercy and love, and then we are humbled from our own moral high horse and can say that we know God is right in all His judgments and we defer to His judgments because He is good whether we understand it all or not.

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How does that make any sense? How can we be expected to come to understand the goodness and mercy and love of God if these are not traits that he exemplifies? You commit a grave error of circular reasoning, here. You assume that God is loving, and conclude that the slaughter of the children was an act of love. But the only reasonable conclusion is that the slaughter of the children demonstrates that God is not loving.

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No, there are other evidences of God's love and goodness, tons of them, in the Bible and in our own lives. Instead of locking horns with God over the parts that offend you, you have to start with Jesus and the other evidences of God's goodness.

"There is no one good, no not one" is in a psalm and quoted in the New Testament. "All our righteousness is as filthy rags" in the eyes of God. That's in Isaiah I think. "All we like sheep have gone astray." That's definitely in Isaiah. blueletterbible.org if you need to look them up.Good night. I'm going to bed.

Sure, but the people we are talking about aren't sociopaths. At best they're the grandchildren of sociopaths, and we don't visit any particular hardships on the children of criminals in our society. What crime can these children have committed? We're talking about punishing them for crimes that their relatives committed. How can you "know what you're getting into" when it's being gotten into long before you were born? But here's the thing. I'm not wrong; you are, and God is. No, it makes perfect sense to me - God isn't a good person. It's not hard to understand; it's merely impossible to reconcile with your assumption that God is good. The conclusion you should be drawing from that is not that you're incapable of understanding, but that your assumptions are wrong.If I told you that "2+2=5", you would correctly point out that I was wrong. If I tried to tell you "no, you have to first assume that I am right, and even then, it's hard to understand how I could be, but trust me, I am", you'd rightly tell me that was bullshit. Well, I call bullshit on this. No, it's quite the opposite. It can't be understood if you assume that God is good. If you do not assume that, it's easily understood. I'm not righteous. But the thing is, I have God's own sense of good and evil. He said so, in the Bible. Even Jeffery Dahmer could remember flowers on Mother's Day, or to tip the pizza guy. Just because you can point to something loving and good God did over here doesn't mean that everything God does must be loving and good.

Hey, Faith, let`s move away from the Amalekites. You believe God created bacteria? Viruses?

Faith has grossly moisrepresented the historical conditions behind taxes on Christians. Christians and Jews have always had favoured status among infidels in the Islamic worls as also being People of the Book. The Medieval Islamic world was also streets ahead of the west interms of multiculturalism. Yes Islamic states did impose taxes on christians as aliens - just like the Christian states imposed taxes on Jews and other aliens. Just like the Byzantines taxed the Venetian conclave in Constantinople.But this is a LIBERAL measure in its time and place - the English simply refused to pay back loans from jews and launched a progrom against them. Sun dry expulsions, massacres, and burnings alive formed the Christian approach to ethnic minorities by contrast to the enlightened Islamic aliens tax.

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Are you really so totally ignorant of Christian History? Do you have any idea who Constantine was and the part he played in the spread of Christianity?

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And not just Constantine. The difference is simple, there is no directive in scripture to conquer, to spread by the sword.
Christ forbade his disciples to use armed force, note Peter relieving someone of his ear, and Christs response.
But that is not true of Islam. When the Protestants and Catholics of Ireland were at odds, the clergy of other nations did not incite their able-bodied to join the fight and they did not plead for money from their members to finance killing. But, that is true with Islam. Its wars and terrorism are very openly supported by Muslim groups everywhere and are encouraged from the Mosques. Why?Is Allah the god of Christians?A good source for understanding is G. J. O. Moshay's "Who is this Allah"
It uses middle eastern history to explain Allah who has no similarity with Jehovah God.

Oh come now. Are you saying there were no collection plates passed for "Our Brothers in Ireland" in Catholic Churches in NY? And remember that guy called Pope Urban? LOL Some Mosques. Because Fundamentalism is exclusionary in nature. It doesn't matter if it Fundamental Christianity or Islam, Fundamentalism is Exclusionary. Yup.A good source to learn the truth about Allah is the Koran.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Turned my back for a while and another Islam thread starts. Oh well, 'tis my duty as one of the few Muslims on board to grab a scimitar and join the melee...

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And not just Constantine. The difference is simple, there is no directive in scripture to conquer, to spread by the sword.
Christ forbade his disciples to use armed force, note Peter relieving someone of his ear, and Christs response.
But that is not true of Islam. When the Protestants and Catholics of Ireland were at odds, the clergy of other nations did not incite their able-bodied to join the fight and they did not plead for money from their members to finance killing. But, that is true with Islam. Its wars and terrorism are very openly supported by Muslim groups everywhere and are encouraged from the Mosques. Why?

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And your post is wrong on two counts mister! I challenge you to back up your assertion

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The difference is simple, there is no directive in scripture to conquer, to spread by the sword.

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by quoting a Qur'an verse that says Muslims has to conquer, spread by the sword. And the other one

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wars and terrorism are very openly supported by Muslim groups everywhere and are encouraged from the Mosques.

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is also wrong, I've been around to many masjids and learned the views of various Muslim groups and so far the majority speaks against the current wave of al-Qaida franchise terrorism (which is an offshoot of the US's earlier support to Osama & the like when they were American puppets against the Soviets).

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Is Allah the god of Christians?

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Is God the god of Christians? I guess He is, but I thought the Christians' God is not God but Jesus also?

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The tax is designed to humiliate and torment. There may be more dirt poor Muslims because the religion does not reward enterprise and success, but at least they have had the privilege of pushing Christians and Jews off the sidewalks. It's fact but I have to find the research. Christians are also forbidden to own a dwelling that is taller than a Muslim's and churches must always be smaller than mosques

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care to back this statement with some real examples? Back home in Indonesia I think the Christians on average are slightly more prosperous than the majority Muslims. There are large churches and large houses owned by Christians in my hometown. You high on something or what?

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The religion says Jews must go, Israel must go, and any kind of deception is permitted in that service.

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Care to back that up? Jews had been living peacefully under Muslim rule for ages! It's only just recently that Arabs (Muslims AND Christians) got into conflict with the state of Israel, because of their terrorizing ways from 1948 on.And yes, the Qur'an criticizes Jews, but it does not imply that Muslims should exterminate Jews or anything.

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They believed they worshipped the same God, yes, but that their new revelation cancelled out the Biblical revelation and is intended to conquer the world, and those who stick to the Biblical religions are now infidels for rejecting the new revelation. The Koran changes Biblical facts, makes Ishmael Abraham's heir instead of Isaac as the Bible says, even confuses Mary the mother of Jesus with Miriam the sister of Moses. They consider this the truth and the Bible false. They changed the name of God. In the Bible God gives His N ame as YHWH, "I Am that I Am." That is His Name. It is not Allah. The name Allah was originally the name of the moon god, one of hundreds of idol gods that were housed at Mecca before Mohammed made it Muslim. Yes, Muslims believe they worship the same God, but they don't.

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I agree with part of the firs sentence. The Qur'an was intended to replace the human-corrupted Gospels and Torah.The Qur'an did not confuse Mary with Miriam, btw. There's even a whole chapter dedicated to her, telling of her account. I thought Mary was not mentioned a lot in the Bible?Allah is not a name, it is the Arabic word for 'God'. I've discussed this with Buzsaw a while ago. You might want to check this threadYHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, adonai, lord, elohim, god, allah, Allah thread

Chris Porcelain,Thanks for your peaceful comments. Sometimes I too get distracted by those Christians who badmouth my religion without them knowing i bit of what the actual situation is.If only all Christians were like you, Jar, and several other ones that does not have hatred or misunderstanding covering their eyes (or even the atheists and agnostics here, most of them has been a nice bunch), we'd have a peaceful world.Peace brother!Q29:47
And do not argue with the people of the Scripture ('Christians, Jews') except in the best manner; except for those who are wicked amongst them; and Say: "We believe in what was revealed to us and in what was revealed to you, and our god and your god is the same; to Him we surrender."

Well, let's see what Muhammad ibn Abdullah actually said about that. Utter nonsense. The Crusades were a classic example of turning internal strife (Christian City-State fighting Christian City-State) towards a common external foe. The Muslims were simply an excuse to try to unify the warring European powers.Afterall, was it the Muslims that sacked Christian Byzantium in 1204?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion