Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 109 (8738 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 04-26-2017 7:51 AM
387 online now:
14174dm, Chiroptera, NoNukes, Percy (Admin), Pressie (5 members, 382 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Jayhawker Soule
Post Volume:
Total: 805,318 Year: 9,924/21,208 Month: 3,011/2,674 Week: 435/961 Day: 51/114 Hour: 2/10

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1
...
456
7
89Next
Author Topic:   NEPHILIM mYsteries
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 2465 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 91 of 134 (313464)
05-19-2006 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by DrJones*
05-18-2006 7:30 PM


"giants"?
Hello Dr Jones :)

Heidelbergs are "Giants" in the sense that they are far taller than other fossil humans. Neanderthals, most populations of homo Erectus, and other hominids where far shorter than the Heidelbergensis. This is why they are nicknamed "Goliaths" (see wikipedia article on Homo Heidelbergensis)So in that sense, they are "giants". Compared to us, tey are of average height (though far, far stronger than a 6 foot 200 lbs modern human), but when compared to Neanderthals (5 feet 5 inches) and other fossil humans, they are very tall.


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4
This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by DrJones*, posted 05-18-2006 7:30 PM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by DrJones*, posted 05-19-2006 4:25 PM LudoRephaim has responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1645
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004


Message 92 of 134 (313585)
05-19-2006 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by LudoRephaim
05-19-2006 8:15 AM


Re: "giants"?
Heidelbergs are "Giants" in the sense that they are far taller than other fossil humans

Not entirely true. While I dislke using Wiki (I prefer using the primary sources) it gives an average height of 5'10" for Homo erectus, an average height of 6' for Homo ergaster, and for Homo antecessor a range of 5'6"-6'. So while they are taller than Homo habilis and Homo neanderthalensis (whose short limbs and large core were likely an adaptation to a cold climate) their height is not unusual in relation to their closer relatives.


Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor
This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-19-2006 8:15 AM LudoRephaim has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-20-2006 9:45 AM DrJones* has not yet responded

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 2465 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 93 of 134 (313851)
05-20-2006 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by DrJones*
05-19-2006 4:25 PM


hmm. cool.
Thanks for the info Dr Jones. I guess you learn something new every day :)


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4
This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by DrJones*, posted 05-19-2006 4:25 PM DrJones* has not yet responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 114 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 94 of 134 (314087)
05-21-2006 6:52 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by LudoRephaim
05-18-2006 4:22 PM


Re: rephaim???
yay i can post again!

Classical Hebrew is Biblical Hebrew.

yes, yes i know that. (six of one, half dozen of the other...)

as far as i know, there are only three forms of hebrew (not counting proto-semitic): ancient, masoretic/biblical/classical, and modern. modern hebrew, if i recall correctly, was invented rather recently, 1940's i think? as a result of the formation of the state of israel. it is highly derived from biblical hebrew -- i couldn't pin down the specific differences for you, other than a subtle shift in word order.

They teach it at several colleges and many, many seminaries (Though some that I know that took it seem to have not used it and rememebr less than they did)

well, because of the little bit i was talking about above, even a course in modern hebrew (like the ones i've taken) help. it's slow learning, but it helps. the problem, maybe, with seminary courses is that they very likely treat it as a dead language. it's anything but.

it would be rather like a foreigner attempting to read shakespeare in the original english. a good starting place might be to learn english in general.

I bought a Old Testament hebrew flashcard set, so I hope I will learn at least a little of it in the summer.

it's a rather tricky language. once you get over the spelling, and the right-to-left bits, it goes pretty easily until past tense. i'll admit, i failed that part of my final.

but it's downright suprising to learn just how much it has in common with english. bits of it have influenced the english language for the last 400 years, via the literal habits of the kjv translators. and when the modern variety of hebrew was constructed, english was the lingua franca and seems to have a great deal of influence in return. i can't tell you how many of our "vocabulary" words were english words transliterated.

anyways, back on topic:

on the Rephaim: THey could be Giants and a race of people. It is cool to study.

i'm remaining skeptical for the time being (for the sake of argument) that rephaim = giant. it seems, more often than not, to be describing an ethnic group. this group seems to have had a stereotype for gigantism, though, i will give you that. the clear connotation is that they are BIG and strong and hearty people.

but here's a question: do you think these claims were subject to exageration? for instance, earlier documents (like the septuagint), portray goliath as a bit shorter than later documents (like the masoretic text)


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-18-2006 4:22 PM LudoRephaim has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-21-2006 7:53 PM arachnophilia has responded

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 2465 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 95 of 134 (314208)
05-21-2006 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by arachnophilia
05-21-2006 6:52 AM


good question
hey arach :)

Arachnophilia writes:

Do you think these claims where subject to exaggeration?

Good question. Often things of great size are believed at first to be far larger/heavier/taller than they really are. Grizzlies for example when seen at first from a distance are thought at first to weigh over 1000 lbs at times. The bears are then discovered to have weighed maybe 800 lbs or so. There is a saying that the a Bear a long distance from a scale often weighs the most.

The Rephaim giants (specifically the anakites) are exaggerated in Numbers 13:33 (we looked like grasshoppers to 'em!)and it wouldn't take much size to be considered a "giant" in those days (average hebrew height was around 5'3-5'7) A race of people as tall and a large as a football lineman (6 feet 4 inch, 305 lbs) would seem quite gigantic to the tiny hebrews.

On Goliath, the septuagint, dead sea scrolls and Josephus do render Goliath as "4 cubits and a span" or around 6 and a half feet tall. But then again what cubit where they using? Royal cubit (20.4 inches long) common cubit (17.5 inches long) the cubit of New Testament times (I think it is also called the greek or roman cubit, around 21.6 inches long)? if the royal or Greco/roman cubit, Goliath would be over or around 7 feet tall. Still far shorter than the Masoretic text rendering, but still quite tall.

I dont think the Bible's original autographs exaggerated Goliath's height, though whether it rendered 9 feet or 6 '6 feet is up in question. Either way he was a big sun-of-a-gun who not even the giant saul wanted to mess with. Only a little teenager with a slingshot (effective weapon) took 'em on, and nailed that sucker right in the forehead LOL.


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4
This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by arachnophilia, posted 05-21-2006 6:52 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by ReverendDG, posted 05-22-2006 1:11 AM LudoRephaim has responded
 Message 97 by arachnophilia, posted 05-22-2006 1:05 PM LudoRephaim has responded

  
ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 1492 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 96 of 134 (314245)
05-22-2006 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by LudoRephaim
05-21-2006 7:53 PM


Re: good question
he Rephaim giants (specifically the anakites) are exaggerated in Numbers 13:33 (we looked like grasshoppers to 'em!)and it wouldn't take much size to be considered a "giant" in those days (average hebrew height was around 5'3-5'7) A race of people as tall and a large as a football lineman (6 feet 4 inch, 305 lbs) would seem quite gigantic to the tiny hebrews.

I'm not sure they where talking about height though, but streight verses weakness, i'm thinking its like we say swatting you like a gnat, its not that you are like a gnat but that you are as easy as one

I dont think the Bible's original autographs exaggerated Goliath's height, though whether it rendered 9 feet or 6 '6 feet is up in question. Either way he was a big sun-of-a-gun who not even the giant saul wanted to mess with. Only a little teenager with a slingshot (effective weapon) took 'em on, and nailed that sucker right in the forehead LOL.

yes they would do that to make it a better more exagerated story to make david greater than he was, most likely goliath was at most 6 foot, that still would be tall - i watched the history channel about david and his sling shot, seems it was a pretty powerful weapon if used right
smacking goliath in the right spot in the forehead would kill him, if the right force is applied
This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-21-2006 7:53 PM LudoRephaim has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-23-2006 5:59 PM ReverendDG has responded

    
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 114 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 97 of 134 (314371)
05-22-2006 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by LudoRephaim
05-21-2006 7:53 PM


Re: good question
On Goliath, the septuagint, dead sea scrolls and Josephus do render Goliath as "4 cubits and a span" or around 6 and a half feet tall. But then again what cubit where they using? Royal cubit (20.4 inches long) common cubit (17.5 inches long) the cubit of New Testament times (I think it is also called the greek or roman cubit, around 21.6 inches long)? if the royal or Greco/roman cubit, Goliath would be over or around 7 feet tall. Still far shorter than the Masoretic text rendering, but still quite tall.

well, it does show that claims were exagerated, or at least increased, over time, no matter what cubit you're using. thought, i admit, it would be interesting if the differences lined up switching from cubit to the other.

I dont think the Bible's original autographs exaggerated Goliath's height, though whether it rendered 9 feet or 6 '6 feet is up in question.

if the original claim was 6'6, that's well within the realm of reality. (heck, i'm 6'3)


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-21-2006 7:53 PM LudoRephaim has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-23-2006 6:03 PM arachnophilia has responded

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 2465 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 98 of 134 (314705)
05-23-2006 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by ReverendDG
05-22-2006 1:11 AM


Re: good question
Hey ReverendDG :)

ReverendDG writes:

I'm not sure they where talking about height though,

They where talking about size, height and physical strength. In a sense, they where saying that they wouldn't be a mouthful to the anakites.

Now they could have exxagerated Goliath's height to make the story more powerful, but as a believer I cant see God writing that kind of embellishment (kind of an untruth). Later writers could have though.


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4
This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by ReverendDG, posted 05-22-2006 1:11 AM ReverendDG has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by ReverendDG, posted 05-24-2006 1:20 AM LudoRephaim has responded

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 2465 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 99 of 134 (314706)
05-23-2006 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by arachnophilia
05-22-2006 1:05 PM


Re: good question
Arachnophilia writes:

If the original claim was 6'6, that's well within the realm of reality.

9'9 is possible too. Someone having a growth disorder on par with the likes of Robert Wadlow (8'11) could reach it (though he might not have been a champion like Goliath was). And nature has shown amazing size change in species, such as bears (raccon sized Ursavus Elemensis to Clysdale-sized Giant Short Faced Bear) though the time needed to have such a size change might be limited, or maybe not...


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4
This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by arachnophilia, posted 05-22-2006 1:05 PM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by arachnophilia, posted 05-24-2006 1:54 AM LudoRephaim has responded

  
ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 1492 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 100 of 134 (314790)
05-24-2006 1:20 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by LudoRephaim
05-23-2006 5:59 PM


Re: good question
They where talking about size, height and physical strength. In a sense, they where saying that they wouldn't be a mouthful to the anakites.

no, it sounded like they said they would be easily crushed by the anakites, i do not think they meant height really
considering that nephilim doesn't mean giant in hebrew, they were more like hercules or persaus - heroes or great men, but not giants

wiki has a pretty good entry for you to read :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim

Now they could have exxagerated Goliath's height to make the story more powerful, but as a believer I cant see God writing that kind of embellishment (kind of an untruth). Later writers could have though.

well i guess if you believe the bible is written by god. Though there is no evidence it was and lots of evidence saying it was written by men. Likely it was writen exactly like other religions did, to entertain or teach.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-23-2006 5:59 PM LudoRephaim has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-24-2006 6:08 PM ReverendDG has not yet responded

    
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 114 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 101 of 134 (314792)
05-24-2006 1:54 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by LudoRephaim
05-23-2006 6:03 PM


Re: good question
9'9 is possible too.

6'6 is far more likely, and more of a robust build. the real "giants" that approach ten feet tend not to be very healthy, and that would defeat the meaning of "rephaim" wouldn't it?


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-23-2006 6:03 PM LudoRephaim has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-24-2006 6:16 PM arachnophilia has responded

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 2465 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 102 of 134 (314944)
05-24-2006 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by ReverendDG
05-24-2006 1:20 AM


ReverendDG writes:

Considering that Nephilim doesn't mean giant in hebrew

The greek word Hechatonchires means "hundred handed", not "giant" yet they where a race of giants in Greek mythology. Just because Nephilim doesn't mean "giant" doesn't mean that they where not.

ReverendDG writes:

Heroes or great men, but not giants

Actually all three. In post 24 I wrote down several Bible Verses that mention their great height (Deut 2:10-11, 20-21) and the fact that they (anakites, descendats of Nephilim) where quite feared (Deut 9:1-2, 1:28)Combine this with Numbers 13:33, and their identification as "Rephaims" which seems to be the people that the mighty King Og comes from (see Deuteronomy 2:10-11, 20-11 and 3:11)then it seems quite likely that the "grasshoppers" metaphor describes a huge size difference. Though the Jews at this time where quite tiny...

BTW: I have that wiki article saved on my computer. It kicks butt!! Thanks for posting it :)

Edited by LudoRephaim, : No reason given.


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4
This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by ReverendDG, posted 05-24-2006 1:20 AM ReverendDG has not yet responded

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 2465 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 103 of 134 (314950)
05-24-2006 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by arachnophilia
05-24-2006 1:54 AM


King saul
Arachnophilia writes:

6'6 is far more likely,

Actually, considering that King Saul was in that height range and yet was needing a new clean pair of underwear when he saw 'em, I think that, given the Septuagint, dead sea scrolls, and the multiple cubits, around 7 feet tall is far more likely. Though if Goliath was more rubust in build than saul and yet around the same height, then the same effect would probably happen. I'm 6 feet tall and over 200 pounds, yet the professional wrestler Mark Henry ("The world's strongest man") is only one inch taller than i am, yet weighs 380 lbs. Goliath might have been as such to Saul, though given the text emphasises on Goliath's height compared to how it talked about sauls And how it makes Goliath seem invincible, it might be more likely that Goliath was far taller and more robust than Saul.


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4
This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by arachnophilia, posted 05-24-2006 1:54 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by arachnophilia, posted 05-25-2006 4:16 AM LudoRephaim has responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 114 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 104 of 134 (315066)
05-25-2006 4:16 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by LudoRephaim
05-24-2006 6:16 PM


Re: King saul
Actually, considering that King Saul was in that height range

i'm sorry, where is that given?

i see on thing that MIGHT be a hieght reference:

quote:
1Sa 9:2 And he had a son, whose name [was] Saul, a choice young man, and a goodly: and [there was] not among the children of Israel a goodlier person than he: from his shoulders and upward [he was] higher than any of the people.

a basic rule in figure drawing is that people around 7 heads tall. so, if this verse is literal (i'm not sure), it means saul was 8/7ths as tall as the average person. using the larger of your two estimates for average (5'7), that would put saul just under 6'5. with the smaller (5'3) that would put saul at 6 feet.

presuming that's what this verse means, and the estimates are valid.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-24-2006 6:16 PM LudoRephaim has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-25-2006 8:18 PM arachnophilia has responded

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 2465 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 105 of 134 (315190)
05-25-2006 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by arachnophilia
05-25-2006 4:16 AM


Big Saul
Arachnophilia writes:

im sorry, where is that given?

in Message 35 I quoted a source that showed it, and showed in messages 34-35 that 5'3 to 5'7 was the average height of the hebrews during the time of Saul, not the limit. There where bound to be jews at that time that where far taller than 5'7, probably in the 6-foot range. Let alone if any at that time had a growth disorder (possibly around 7 feet tall). Saul is shown as "head and shoulders" taller than any of the Jews (the verse you quoted shows that)So Saul was in the 6'6 height range, maybe in the 7-foot range.

Arachnophilia writes:

Presuming that's what this verse means, and the estimates are valid

1st Samuel 9:2 shows that Saul was taller than other jews as well as more handsome, kind of like an old Testament giant brad pitt. And during those times ancient peoples had high value for stature and handsomeness in their kings (The Ivp Bible Background commentary: Old Testament, page 293)There is no way to read a ultra-figuro-read-between-the-lines interpretation into the text.

See also 1 Samuel 10:23-24, where it also says Saul was taller than any of the people from the shoulders up, and Samuel himself saying that among the people (Jews) there was none like him. To the Jews, Saul was a Giant.

Edited by LudoRephaim, : No reason given.

Edited by LudoRephaim, : No reason given.


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4
This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by arachnophilia, posted 05-25-2006 4:16 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by arachnophilia, posted 05-29-2006 4:21 PM LudoRephaim has responded

  
Prev1
...
456
7
89Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017