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Author Topic:   Contradictions: Hint that Genesis 1 and 2 are Allegorical
jar
Member
Posts: 29429
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 61 of 100 (743570)
12-02-2014 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Phat
12-02-2014 12:08 PM


Re: The Charge Of The Light Brigade
Phat writes:

Did it ever occur to you that we are the content of the source?

Does that even have any meaning?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Phat, posted 12-02-2014 12:08 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11761
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 62 of 100 (743576)
12-02-2014 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by ICANT
12-02-2014 2:39 AM


Re: Genesis 1 and 2
The story in chapter 1 and the story in chapter 2 are two different stories and happened billions if not trillions or more years in our time apart.

You're still pushing your stupid gap theory?

Where are you putting the break in Genesis this time?

Still between Gen 4 and Gen 5?

For the lurkers who are unaware, last time we discussed this ICANT had Gen 2 - Gen 4 all happening in a gap between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2, and then you go to Chapter 5 after the end of Chapter 1.

Have you though of a better argument than "just coincidence" for why Chapter 4 ends with a man named Adam having a son named Seth who had a son name Enos, and Chapter 5 begins with a man named Adam having a son named Seth who had a son name Enos?

Is your position still that those are two different groups of people who just happen to have the exact same names?

Or have you modified your theory at all?

Weren't you saying something about how verses 25 and 26 shouldn't be in Chapter 4, or something? You make any head way with that?

quote:
Genesis 4:

25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.


...

quote:
4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:

5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

6 And Seth lived an hundred and five years, and begat Enos:



This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by ICANT, posted 12-02-2014 2:39 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by ICANT, posted 12-02-2014 9:16 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 13 days)
Posts: 5625
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 63 of 100 (743646)
12-02-2014 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by New Cat's Eye
12-02-2014 1:19 PM


Re: Genesis 1 and 2
Hi Cat,

You have me mixed up with someone else. I have never advocated a gap.

I have put forth what the text says.

The heavens and the earth began to exist in Genesis 1:1.
Genesis 2:4 claims that it and what follows is the (history) generations of the heavens and the earth in 'the' day God created the heavens and the earth.

That day (light period) lasted from the beginning to exist of the heavens and the earth until the evening (dark period) found at Genesis 1:2.

No gap at all just one light period and one dark period declared to be day one by God Himself.

I believe in six light periods and six dark periods in which all 3 creation events took place.

There was a creation in Genesis 1:1.
There was a creation event in Genesis 1:21.
There was a creation event in Genesis 1:27.

Everything else that was done was work preformed on some pre-existing materials by God.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-02-2014 1:19 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-05-2014 9:54 AM ICANT has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9992
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 64 of 100 (743655)
12-02-2014 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by ICANT
12-02-2014 2:39 AM


Re: Genesis 1 and 2
I determined the day the heavens and the earth began to exist as a light period, because of God's definition of a light period as a day in Genesis 1:5.

This light period in which the heavens and earth began to exist had ended prior to Genesis 1:2 as darkness was over the face of the earth.

Genesis 2:4 plainly says day and not night. So God created the heavens and the earth in a light period.

More correctly it says day, and is silent about night. There is no denial of night or darkness. This is noteworthy because each of six creation 'days' is described as consisting of an evening and a morning.

It's been pointed out to you before that your logic fails on this point and that you have no basis for making a 'determination'. Just as is the case with our common usage i.e. the seven days in a week OR farming during the day, each day can refer to 1) only the light period of a single day/night cycle, or 2) the combined day and night period making up a cycle, or 3) any period of time starting at any instant and equal to the day and night period.

In short, the word day is clearly used in the text in ways other than what you are calling the definition. In fact the term 'day' is in two different ways within verse 1:5. The capitalized usage is for a light period, while the lower cased usage is for the combined period. Now let's see if there is any reason to pick out a particular usage for Gen 2:4. Hmm, no caps so perhaps we mean, a day/night cycle? Maybe.

Other than supporting what appears to be a bad reading of Genesis, there is no reason to assume that the term day as used in Genesis means a light period, with the sole exception of those places where that usage is explicit.

I will make an assumption here that God was explaining how things happened in the beginning and up until God was visiting with him on the Mount

Well at least the text does not contradict you on that particular assumption.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by ICANT, posted 12-02-2014 2:39 AM ICANT has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11761
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 65 of 100 (743840)
12-05-2014 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by ICANT
12-02-2014 9:16 PM


Re: Genesis 1 and 2
You have me mixed up with someone else.

No, I've debated this with you before.

I have never advocated a gap.

That's exactly what you are doing... maybe you don't know what a Gap Theory is:

quote:
According to this {Gap Theory} concept, Genesis 1:1 describes the initial creation of the universe.

...

But then occurred a devastating global cataclysm, destroying all life on Earth and leaving a vast fossil graveyard everywhere. This situation is then said to be what is described in Genesis 1:2. "And the earth was without form and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep."


Is that not exctly what you are describing?

The heavens and the earth began to exist in Genesis 1:1.
Genesis 2:4 claims that it and what follows is the (history) generations of the heavens and the earth in 'the' day God created the heavens and the earth.

That day (light period) lasted from the beginning to exist of the heavens and the earth until the evening (dark period) found at Genesis 1:2.

No gap at all just one light period and one dark period declared to be day one by God Himself.

The "gap" is between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2. There are no verses between those two in the Bible. You are putting a bunch of stuff happening in between those two versus, thus you have a gap between them.

The problem that arrises is where do you close the gap? Do you have the rest of the Bible all the way through Revelation happening before Gen 1:2? Or do you cut it off somewhere else?

Last time you were closing the gap between Gen 4 and Gen 5. You said that the opening verse in Gen 5:

quote:
This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

says that it all took place in the day that God created man in his likeness, which you say is the stuff that takes place in Gen 1.

But that doesn't work because Gen 4 ends with the exact same characters that Gen 5 begins with.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by ICANT, posted 12-02-2014 9:16 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 365 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 66 of 100 (767592)
08-30-2015 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by PaulGL
09-28-2014 5:38 PM


Re: Genesis 6-day account is allegorical, no conflict evolution
My comment

The difference between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 is quite simple

The Lord makes a statement that in the beginning He created

There is a vast period of time between this event and about 6000 year ago when the earth is seen as being desolate and void of life forms as the result of His judgment against Satan and his rebellion [Job 38:1-7]

The sons of God initially were the created angels [Job 38:1-7; Isaiah 14; Ezekiel 28; Revelation 12]

Satan defected and 1/3 of the angels followed

Then about 6000 years ago the Lord moved to recondition a judged earth

The earth and the other planets are of the same age and were created in the beginning ..... perhaps billions of years old or more

And today the other planets continue to bear the scars of great judgment, upheaval, and destruction including the same for the earth under the earth's surface .... none of the other planets are capable of supporting life forms

Only the earth was reconditioned just as Genesis 1:3-25 records the Lord's actions

These things are all recent events to replace life support systems for the earth .... but the other planets remain the same .... void and lifeless

The reconditioning acts should be observed from the earth itself as the Lord began the makeover .... both the earth and all of the other heavenly bodies including the sun and moon were present and created long before

In this case He made the sun, moon, and stars to appear from the earth by dissipating the thick waters above from those below forming the atmospheric layer between .... all were already there but could not be seen because of the darkness formed by the water vapors above the great deep which covered the earth

So His actions brought forth a reconditioned earth for His next action ..... to form the human being for inhabiting the newly reconditioned earth [Genesis 1:26]

His initial creation of the earth and universe are all of extreme age, but the reconditioned earth and the presence of humans is of about 6000 years old according to the genealogical record of humanity recorded in the Bible

He simply has not revealed all of the details of the time lapsing between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2

If so, one would need a fleet of semi-trucks to carry the Bible around

What is revealed to the human in scripture and by natural observation is directly related to the introduction of mankind on the earth about 6000 years ago

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by PaulGL, posted 09-28-2014 5:38 PM PaulGL has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Coyote, posted 08-30-2015 7:44 PM Straightshot has responded
 Message 70 by Omnivorous, posted 08-31-2015 12:03 AM Straightshot has responded

    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 6012
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 67 of 100 (767593)
08-30-2015 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Straightshot
08-30-2015 7:35 PM


Re: Genesis 6-day account is allegorical, no conflict evolution
His initial creation of the earth and universe are all of extreme age, but the reconditioned earth and the presence of humans is of about 6000 years old according to the genealogical record of humanity recorded in the Bible. ...

What is revealed to the human is directly related to the introduction of mankind on the earth about 6000 years ago

There are many lines of evidence that show your ca. 6,000 year estimate is wrong for humans.

Depending on where you draw the human boundary, that date is off by either a couple of hundred thousand years (archaic Homo sapiens), or about 2.8 million years (Homo erectus).


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Straightshot, posted 08-30-2015 7:35 PM Straightshot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Straightshot, posted 08-30-2015 7:50 PM Coyote has responded

  
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 365 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 68 of 100 (767594)
08-30-2015 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Coyote
08-30-2015 7:44 PM


Re: Genesis 6-day account is allegorical, no conflict evolution
Well that is what you say Coyote, but the Lord reveals the truth of the matter

The Genesis account of creation is absolutely true


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Coyote, posted 08-30-2015 7:44 PM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Coyote, posted 08-30-2015 11:21 PM Straightshot has not yet responded
 Message 73 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-31-2015 8:11 AM Straightshot has not yet responded

    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 6012
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 69 of 100 (767600)
08-30-2015 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Straightshot
08-30-2015 7:50 PM


Re: Genesis 6-day account is allegorical, no conflict evolution
Well that is what you say Coyote, but the Lord reveals the truth of the matter

The Genesis account of creation is absolutely true

The Genesis account of creation has been disproved in any number of ways.

Your belief makes no difference, as the facts are unchanged by your belief.

(Old tribal myths are not the most reliable form of evidence, and that's what you're promoting.)


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Straightshot, posted 08-30-2015 7:50 PM Straightshot has not yet responded

  
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 523 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 70 of 100 (767603)
08-31-2015 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Straightshot
08-30-2015 7:35 PM


Re: Genesis 6-day account is allegorical, no conflict evolution
Why don't you use periods and paragraphs? Is there some meaning to it?

Your posts are typographically tedious to read.

When you make an assertion followed by chapter and verse, you are just making an assertion followed by letters and numbers, which is to say, assertions barenaked. Perhaps you should quote the relevant scripture and argue why it means what you say and put a little flesh on the bones.

Outlines don't make effective arguments.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Straightshot, posted 08-30-2015 7:35 PM Straightshot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Straightshot, posted 08-31-2015 7:57 AM Omnivorous has not yet responded

    
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 365 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 71 of 100 (767613)
08-31-2015 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Omnivorous
08-31-2015 12:03 AM


Re: Genesis 6-day account is allegorical, no conflict evolution
The drama never ends Om

And you know quite well what a statement is, followed by scriptural reference

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Omnivorous, posted 08-31-2015 12:03 AM Omnivorous has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Straightshot, posted 08-31-2015 7:59 AM Straightshot has not yet responded

    
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 365 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 72 of 100 (767614)
08-31-2015 7:59 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Straightshot
08-31-2015 7:57 AM


Re: Genesis 6-day account is allegorical, no conflict evolution
"The Genesis account of creation has been disproved in any number of ways.

Your belief makes no difference, as the facts are unchanged by your belief."

You have the wrong facts Coyote

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Straightshot, posted 08-31-2015 7:57 AM Straightshot has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Coyote, posted 08-31-2015 8:38 AM Straightshot has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11761
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 73 of 100 (767616)
08-31-2015 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Straightshot
08-30-2015 7:50 PM


Re: Genesis 6-day account is allegorical, no conflict evolution
The Genesis account of creation is absolutely true

The only way to come to that conclusion is to first assume it is true and then interpret all the scripture into fitting into the assumption that it is all true.

Like you did above with the idea that:

quote:
He simply has not revealed all of the details of the time lapsing between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2

You see, there's no reason to think that until you have gone through the scripture, already assuming it is true, and realizing that this must be the case in order to maintain scriptures' truthfulness.

What other reason is there to think that there is a gap between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2? The only reason is that it must be the case if we want to assume that scripture is true.

That's not only a terrible way to find the truth, its is awful theology and a bastardization of the Bible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Straightshot, posted 08-30-2015 7:50 PM Straightshot has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member
Posts: 6012
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 74 of 100 (767621)
08-31-2015 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Straightshot
08-31-2015 7:59 AM


Re: Genesis 6-day account is allegorical, no conflict evolution
Coyote writes:

The Genesis account of creation has been disproved in any number of ways.

Your belief makes no difference, as the facts are unchanged by your belief.

Straightshot writes:

You have the wrong facts Coyote

Inconvenient facts, for you, perhaps, but not wrong.

Scientific facts are established by observation, testing, and verification.

Religious "facts" are established by dogma, scripture and the like. Testing is the last thing believers want.

But, if you think some scientific facts are wrong this is a good place to discuss the issue. But please, don't just reply with a few dozen bible quotes as if that were evidence.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Straightshot, posted 08-31-2015 7:59 AM Straightshot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Straightshot, posted 08-31-2015 9:05 AM Coyote has responded

  
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 365 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 75 of 100 (767628)
08-31-2015 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Coyote
08-31-2015 8:38 AM


Re: Genesis 6-day account is allegorical, no conflict evolution
"But please, don't just reply with a few dozen bible quotes as if that were evidence"

Sorry .... I cannot comply

I have discovered truth communicated by the one and only God of creation .... no doubt

I would suggest that you dd the same .... but you will do .... what you will do


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Coyote, posted 08-31-2015 8:38 AM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Coyote, posted 08-31-2015 9:19 AM Straightshot has responded

    
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