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Author Topic:   Bible Codes and Bible Numerics for Stephen ben Yeshua
Tamara
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 76 (88253)
02-23-2004 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Stephen ben Yeshua
02-14-2004 4:42 PM


Re: Stephen Needs to be Scientific
Stephen, some of the people here have been merciless towards you. I hope you don't give up. You have some very interesting things to say.

However, I think with bible codes, you are barking up the wrong tree. Here is a good link to check out:

http://www.wopr.com/biblecodes/TheCase.htm


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 02-14-2004 4:42 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 02-25-2004 4:24 PM Tamara has not yet responded
 Message 51 by daniel1212, posted 02-26-2004 11:55 PM Tamara has not yet responded

Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 76 (88654)
02-25-2004 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Tamara
02-23-2004 9:18 PM


Re: Stephen Needs to be Scientific
Tamara,

Thanks for the encouragement. My life is undergoing some changes of late, but I believe that I'll be able to stick with this work for a while. Certainly good training for me.

Simon's article on the Codes is interesting, but is still deeply non-scientific. He starts off suggesting that the whole thing is a lie to get non-religious Jews to be more orthodox, introduces collective opinion of experts as an argument, and talks about scientific proof, which of course does not exist. Meanwhile, Verboom's neat study of the Moby Dick codes in www.BibleCodeDigest.com by itself is evidence that the codes are real.

The debate is not that important to me, because I have sought Jehovah, hear Him talk to me every day, experience daily "miracles" or events that clearly reflect Him doing what He told me He was going to do. But, it is interesting in my study of evil, in the way the debate is conducted, in the destruction of understanding as to how science works. The critics will say that "codes can be found in any text" which twists the original scientific study. That didn't even mention codes at all, and when that expression was used later by scientists, it was defined as a statistically improbable association of ELS's. But, the critic "codes" they insist are not statistically improbable, so are not codes at all. If they were honest, they would say, "code-like" patterns or some such thing.

Evolutionists do this. Even though evolution in the beginning was clearly associated with natural selection, the term has come to mean common descent, which is as much a biblical concept as an evolutionary concept. The God-directed creation of the nation of Israel, for example, was accomplished by the multiplication of a single person, Abraham, until his offspring filled the earth. This is exactly like the expansion of a single new and better gene, that occurs in one individual who reproduces better than others, and someday has that gene in every member of the species. So, evolutionists find evidence for common descent, which could be either created or natural, but attribute it to evolution and somehow argue that natural selection is more plausible.

Anyway, as things now stand from my examination of the various reports, that true codes as originally defined exist seems very likely, and easy to confirm. Many of the confirmations seem reasonably good science. The arguments against, on the other hand, reflect very poor understanding of science, and not much integrity.

But, we will see.

Thanks again.

Stephen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Tamara, posted 02-23-2004 9:18 PM Tamara has not yet responded

Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 76 (88667)
02-25-2004 5:56 PM


I don't know much about written Hebrew so I was wondering how many characters it takes to form a phrase like those found in the Bible Codes. My understanding is that written Hebrew is more syllabic than character based like english is. What I am trying to get at is this, if it only takes 3 characters to spell out a word/phrase compared to 15 characters for english phrases in Moby Dick, is it fair comparing codes written in hebrew versus code written in english? Or better yet, wouldn't it be more accurate to translate Moby Dick to hebrew and then look for codes?

Secondly, recently on the Discovery Channel they had a program about the Bible codes. They compared the improbability of of their codes to "monkey text", or code that would represent a random series. If Hebrew is like english, then certain characters could be overrepresented in grammatic Hebrew as compared to random Hebrew letters. In fact, what they should compare the improbability of the codes to what they consider non-inspired Hebrew writing from the same time period.

I'm not really trying to refute any specific points, but rather trying to get a handle on the language being studied. Hope this is clear.


Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 02-25-2004 6:16 PM Loudmouth has not yet responded

Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 76 (88671)
02-25-2004 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Loudmouth
02-25-2004 5:56 PM


Loudmouth,

The true codes are always defined as being statistically improbable, usually because they are ELS's improbably close to other ELS's of associated meaning. That statistical improbability takes into account the number of letters.

The "monkey text" preserves the frequency of the letters in the experimental text. Sometimes, I understand, it's words that are scrambled, not letters, just in case there is some artifact appearing because certain words have letters in certain arrangements, that could produce false codes.

I think the Moby Dick or War and Peace control was to control for grammatical artifacts, due to sentence structure. These were translated into Hebrew in the original study, which ought to have eliminated any codes they may have originally had. In their original language, if some spiritual being inspired the writing, they may well have had their own codes.

Remember the big problem: Do we have an improbable association for terms that were clearly defined before we started looking? Codes found "by looking" are not codes at all, because their statistical improbability cannot be assessed.

Stephen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Loudmouth, posted 02-25-2004 5:56 PM Loudmouth has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Tamara, posted 02-26-2004 2:34 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has responded

Tamara
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 76 (88853)
02-26-2004 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Stephen ben Yeshua
02-25-2004 6:16 PM


Loudmouth, ancient Hebrew only had consonants in written text. Which means, anyone looking for say the word yeshua need only to find Y and SH in sequence.

Stephen, I checked out the article you linked (Verboom) and I am astonished: the man does not address the Moby Dick codes themselves, but claims to have found "Moby Dick" in the bible, assuming to devastate the opponents. Huh? How is this nifty? Am I missing something?

Stephen, tell me this. If the codes amount to more than a hill of spoiled beans, then show me where anyone has done a completely fair analysis (not going on a fishing expedition but looking for all possible codes in the text) and then disclosed all that was found.

So far, I have not see anything like that. Obviously, any text made of consonants will have "codes" in it. Now if we go look and find that a given text tells us interesting codes like God is truth, for example, or messiah has come, while also coming up with codes like God is a liar, and Satan is God, then something fishy is going on, isn't it? Show me a link where such an analysis has been done, with full disclosure of all "codes" that were found, and I will examine it in detail.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 02-25-2004 6:16 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 02-27-2004 3:31 PM Tamara has not yet responded

daniel1212
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 76 (88964)
02-26-2004 11:55 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Tamara
02-23-2004 9:18 PM


Re: Stephen Needs to be Scientific
Hiu and praise the Lord.
I am completlty new here and do not pretend to be a scientist (though i like science and have a somewaht analytical mind. I only went through high schools before becoming a truck driver (about 72), and now work in Christian evangelism.

I am here however,in response to a controversy with some friends who believe Bible codes offer sold evidence for the KJV bible. I have been reading the 4 pages of posts on codes , and while that has been enlightening as concerns the codes in general, my friends claim is that:

"Torah, (first five books) every fiftieth letter spelled out Torah in Genesis and in Deuteronomy and Numbers, Torah was spelled backwards pointing to the main book of the law, Leviticus. It was also discovered that every 7th letter spelled out God's Name YHWH. ..

This could only be done with the Ben Chayyim Rabbinical Hebrew Manuscript used by the K.J.V .translators."

From what have read i did not see that this only worked with one text. The question is has this aspect been replicated satisfactorily? What about the objection that the translators could pick the vowels?

And seeing we are dealing with improbabilties, what of these other claims.

Bible Numbers: There is a numerical value for each letter in the
Greek and Hebrew alphabet. There is also a spiritual significance for each number in the Bible. There is a perfect balance between the words and numbers that fall in their places throughout the scriptures found only in the preserved Received Text. This also irrefutably proves the doctrine of word or verbal inspiration, over the doctrine of thought or message inspiration. Bible Mathematics, Ed. F Vallowe Evan. Asso.
Forrest Park, Ga.

Infinity Bible Code: By placing the original Hebrew letters in three octaves, then matching them with history's timeline, you will see God's supernatural design. There is an astounding correlation between the numerical value of scriptural words and the numerical sequencing of these chapters reveal past, present, and future events with amazing clarity. The Infinity Code, Al Neal, P. O. Box 1171, St. Albans WV.

I am quite aware of the Kjv debate, and only use it myself, but i believe these arguments are at least questionable.

Thank you for any help you may provide.


Grace and peace thru the Lord Jesus
This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Tamara, posted 02-23-2004 9:18 PM Tamara has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 03-16-2004 4:11 AM daniel1212 has responded

Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 76 (89083)
02-27-2004 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Tamara
02-26-2004 2:34 PM


Tamara,

Here is Witztum's torah codes site.

http://www.torahcodes.co.il/

His original 1994 paper in Statistical Science does exactly what you specify, as do succeeding studies by Witztum, Ganz, and their colleagues. The "Moby Dick Codes" are a lie, and are acually presented as a lie, to prove that it is possible to lie. They aren't codes, and to my knowledge, have never been presented as codes, in the original definition of the term. A "code" in the original definition has to be statistically improbable, because the terms were pre-selected, and not fished for. This is what Witztum et. al. did and do. The Moby Dick Code critics state bluntly that the only "codes" they could find in Moby Dick were fished for, hence not statistically improbable, and hence, not really codes. It is quite dishonest to call them codes. Verboom also preselected his terms, and set up a good control, to prove statistical improbability.

Codes, true codes that is, don't normally "tell" us anything. They can only confirm what we already know, to confirm that Jehovah is out there, out of time, knows what's going on, and has given us a plainly written set of directions to know how to overcome evil with good. The only known exception to that is the discovery that the Gulf War Scud attack on Jerusalem was likely to happen on one of three days, before any of the days had occured. The Israeli intelligence apparently used this information to protect the Israeli people, so that when the attack occured, it killed no one. We may also be alerted to an eminent danger of nuclear holocaust in 2006.

Read Satinover's book to fully understand what is going on here. He's a scientist.

Cheers.

Stephen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Tamara, posted 02-26-2004 2:34 PM Tamara has not yet responded

Tamara
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 76 (89249)
02-28-2004 10:19 AM


Thanks for the link, Stephen. I am checking it out.
Will look for the book too.
Will get back to you in a bit... lot of stuff to plow thru!
kendemyer
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 76 (89643)
03-01-2004 6:04 PM


re: Bible code
To: attempters of dissuading Bible Coders to change their views

Unless I person has a background in statistics you will talk yourself until your are blue in the face and they will still assert the Bible codes are real. It is sort of like talking to a evolutionist who is easily persuaded by ad populum arguments and who thinks men in white lab coats are gods.

I am a Bible believer and before I studied stats and logic I thought Ivan Panin (similar to Bible codes) might have some legitimacy but I was never really convinced.

Sincerely,

Ken

[This message has been edited by kendemyer, 03-01-2004]


Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 03-02-2004 12:59 AM kendemyer has not yet responded

Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 76 (89707)
03-02-2004 12:59 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by kendemyer
03-01-2004 6:04 PM


Re: re: Bible code
Ken,

My doctorate is in Biomathematics from the Department of Experimental Statistics at NCSU. I have carefully, professionally examined the original published works on the Bible codes, several efforts to replicate, and several efforts to criticize. As things now stand, it is highly likely that statistically improbable associations of ELS, known as "Bible codes" exist in the scriptures. This is even more sure with Theomatics from Del Washburn, and somewhat likely with the "gematria" found by Panin. One can find, with a computer, random Panin-like gematria, but to find these things by hand is more difficult. In any case, Panin's hypothesis, that such patterns are more likely in Scripture than in other writings, remains to my knowledge, untested by the computer analysis.

There is more to be done, and will be. Hopefully before 2006, a year closely associated with the words "nuclear holocaust."

It is the statistically naive that write off "codes" as normal probable patterns, or patterns generated by picking terms after the fact. Only a modest amount of statistical expertise is needed to protect from these simple biases.

Satinover explains. Also, Harold Gans.

Stephen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by kendemyer, posted 03-01-2004 6:04 PM kendemyer has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by CarlosnCarlos, posted 03-14-2004 7:08 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has responded

CarlosnCarlos
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 76 (92478)
03-14-2004 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Stephen ben Yeshua
03-02-2004 12:59 AM


Re: re: Bible code
Hi,

Recently, I was researching the Bible Code book (first one) by Drosnin, and I must agree with most of it, but, according to what facts and evidence establish, the case about Einstein and his theories of relativity is concluded as a common error, a mistake, a fallacy.

Drosnin practically pushed hard to convince himself and to others that the Bible actually says something good about Einstein...but...it's on the contrary...the Bible punishs the name of Einstein maybe because this individual invented a world of fantasies against reality and created his own religion against submission to G-d.

Lets see what Drosnin found about Newton and Einstein:

http://groups.msn.com/Physics/theperceptionallaw.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=163

Notice that Drosnin followed the words of the prophet Isaiah by reading the name of Newton and the word Gravity (pulling, attraction) as backwards (from down up and left to right); but with the name of Einstein, Drosnin mistranslated the following:

-"and they prophecied in the camp" words which apply to the narration of the Bible;

-also he deliberately omitted the letter "yod" found at the end of the words over Einstein's name -finishing the sentence-, which shall say "Opposite to reality",

-also, there is not any mathematical evidence to back up such weird translation of the words "to mix and word" into "a new and excellent understanding" (the letters of such words are in random order)

Cleaning up all those misinterpretations of Drosnin, we find the following:

http://groups.msn.com/Physics/theperceptionallaw.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=167

And, following the words of the prophet Isaiah reading "backwards" (from down up and from left to right), we find the following:

http://groups.msn.com/Physics/theperceptionallaw.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=164

Notice that the "curse" is repeated twice, and two words are even crossing the first letter of Einstein's name.

No doubt that the Bible in the New Covenant says that G-d will make humanity to enter in a great delusion, today we can witness such event with men believing in imaginations and fantasies of traveling through time and similar deluded ideas which shall rule the minds of sinners until the end of the era.

G-d Almighty ask for repentance of sins instead of vain ideas of traveling through time to change history or witness the past or future.

Our senses (and sensors) are limited to perceive nothing but the present, even the ideas of observing stars as if they were in their past are nonsenses, there is not a single experiment which back up such idea, such theory is based solely in logic...and logic is not even a requirement to the scientific method.

Drosnin intentions were maybe of "mercy" to favour the unfortunted descrption about Einstein in the Bible, but, we must look for Truth and follow it, because Truth will make us free of demoniac theories of men which become the "stone* of stumbling" in the middle of the path to obey G-d.

Instead of a genius, the Bible code pronounces Einstein as a lunatic.

[*Ironically, Einstein means "One (ein) Stone (stein)".]

Blessings.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 03-02-2004 12:59 AM Stephen ben Yeshua has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 03-16-2004 4:48 AM CarlosnCarlos has not yet responded

Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 76 (92682)
03-16-2004 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by daniel1212
02-26-2004 11:55 PM


Bible codes and life
Daniel1212,

May I reply to this post to Tamara?

I haven't looked at the codes sources you mentioned, but they appear interesting. Panin's work was earliest, then Washburn's Theomatics. The ELS codes took the scriptures most likely to be close to the originals, I believe, and found codes in them, confirming that the scriptures in general were from God, not man.

But the surface text of the scriptures mostly carry the message, "Come talk with God, hearken to His voice, if you want to live." That the scriptures are validated by codes makes this easier, for anyone's first attempts to "hear God's voice" to become prophetic are not that easy. The only school mentioned in scripture was a school of prophets, run by Elijah. They learned something, but only Elisha really got the message. But, now that we know the scriptural message about the importance of the task is really what God wants to say to us through a written message, we can dig in and get it.

When I learned to hear and know His voice, I asked Him what the Bible was all about. What He said to me is this: (roughly translated). "These are writings that are from Me, that we should discuss personally. Be careful not to study them to just find out about Me, or I will have to deal with you as I did with Job. Talk with Me, especially concerning your daily wisdom. Then let Me show you scriptures that confirm what you hear Me tell you, so you can act with greater faith."

He actually told me to use the New King James translation until I learned Hebrew and Greek, and then had me study the life of James, the King, who was a very foolish man. Said He wanted me to understand that all authority was from Him, and that He was perfectly capable of making an authority like James useful. Didn't recommend that I become a fool, but if I found myself becoming foolish for any reason (and, He said, some are good), not to despair. I suspect that your friends are right, and that even the translation of the scriptures will have codes in their translated languages, to a degree depending on their validity.

Keep after the truth.

Stephen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by daniel1212, posted 02-26-2004 11:55 PM daniel1212 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by daniel1212, posted 03-16-2004 6:32 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has responded

Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 76 (92688)
03-16-2004 4:48 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by CarlosnCarlos
03-14-2004 7:08 PM


Re: re: Bible code
Carlosncarlos,

Thanks for the excellent and informative post. There is an interesting article in the Vol 17 number 4 issue of the Journal of Scientific Exploration on the Einstein Mystique, indicating that something weird is going on here.

Now, atomic energy is a reality, and Einstein's contributions to that discovery cannot be denied. But, if we look at the history of his discoveries in the light of modern scientific methodology, the story takes on a new light. It begins, so I understood, with the Michaelson-Morley experiment, which was an attempt to detect the ether through which the earth, and light as a wave, was passing. The result was odd, in that light waves sent out from the earth in the direction of its movement, and those sent out perpendicular to that movement, traveled at the same rate, even thought, if these were moving through an ether, there should have been a difference. So, the ether idea was dropped, and the idea that the speed of light was some sort of relativistic constant introduced.

Now, no one feels that it is worthwhile to point out the the "earth is the center of the universe" idea predicts the results of the Michaelson-Morley experiment. But, we are coming back to the ether, in terms of dark matter and dark energy, "The Field" as some call it, and it's connection with consciousness, and so on. Meshing this with Newton's brilliant observations on gravity is a problem, but to my mind no more "unreasonable" than the ideas associated with quantum mechanics.

That having been said, we come to this comment by you.

Our senses (and sensors) are limited to perceive nothing but the present, even the ideas of observing stars as if they were in their past are nonsenses, there is not a single experiment which back up such idea, such theory is based solely in logic...and logic is not even a requirement to the scientific method.

Now, as I noted in my post #57, the main point of Bible codes is to validate the Bible as a message from God, that message being, "We need to talk." The only escape from the current delusion, as I read the Bible, is to become one of His sheep who "know His voice." In the end, He said that we "know the truth" when we are His disciples, abiding in His word. These comments from you, to be delusion free, would have then to be taken as prophesy, what you are hearing from God. As such, they are out there (as are my words here) to be judged by others seeking a prophetic stance with God.

And, I am hearing something a little different. We do only sense the present, but we live in a time-based world, affirmed as such by God, who recommends that we take the results of our present hearing and reading, etc, and produce "history" or records of the past. Moreover, He has always told me to use logic, but to be careful to keep it in its place. Don't rationalize, He said, but use reason and logic to make predictions that you can confirm. Darwin believed that theories in science came from really good explanations, that made sense of everything. God was very clear telling me that this was his mistake. Theories come from ideas that make surprizing predictions, not that offer good explanations.

As to time travel, well, you ought to look at the PEAR studies on distant viewing, to get a more balanced view. At least, that's what I am hearing.

But, He affirms your main point, that the deluded take these threads and build escape fantasies, that distract them from thinking about their relationship with their Creator.

Have you been following the research on variations in the speed of light? There's one interesting idea, that has the speed of light decreasing through time in a hyper-bolic function, that is asymptotic at about 4000 BC. This would make everybody right: the universe is old and young at the same "time." It depends on how you measure time.

Just an interesting speculation, that reminds us that the best science takes the best from every idea, hears everything, and holds on to what is good.

Thanks again for the codes analyses you brought up. Most interesting.

Stephen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by CarlosnCarlos, posted 03-14-2004 7:08 PM CarlosnCarlos has not yet responded

daniel1212
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 76 (92818)
03-16-2004 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Stephen ben Yeshua
03-16-2004 4:11 AM


Re: Bible codes and life
Thank you for your response, and sorry for the typos (good thing i was not a rabbinical scribe!)

As the actual issue was one's choice of arguments. my position was and is that more research on ELS must be done relative to the mss that the translators of the KJV used in order to use ELS in favor of said translation.

Your research seems to show that maybe something to it, and time will tell. I think one of the greatest proofs for the Bible is seen by it's effects, which my "research" over the past 25 shows that the promised effects (of Christ)correspond to the claims of the Object of faith, contigent upon a soul trusting and obeying. There simply is no other way.

Praise the Lord


This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 03-16-2004 4:11 AM Stephen ben Yeshua has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 03-19-2004 5:17 AM daniel1212 has not yet responded
 Message 61 by JesuisSean, posted 07-21-2011 4:24 PM daniel1212 has not yet responded

Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 76 (93287)
03-19-2004 5:17 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by daniel1212
03-16-2004 6:32 PM


Re: Bible codes and life
Daniel1212,

I think one of the greatest proofs for the Bible is seen by it's effects, which my "research" over the past 25 shows that the promised effects (of Christ)correspond to the claims of the Object of faith, contigent upon a soul trusting and obeying.

Confirms my own experience. Taking the bible as a sort of "Good Life Cookbook" has brought me some truly miraculous meals. Most dependable, when you follow the directions diligently.

Stephen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by daniel1212, posted 03-16-2004 6:32 PM daniel1212 has not yet responded

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