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Author Topic:   Which Version of the Bible is the Word of God?
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 91 of 174 (498488)
02-11-2009 5:43 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Peg
02-10-2009 3:42 AM


Re: gimme those oldtime MS
Also if you look at the Gospel of Luke we see that he used public records to write down the genealogy of Jesus. Now those records of births and deaths were not inspired writings but still Luke used them and it didn't make his writing any less inspired.

So what`s the filter we use to separate 'inspired' writings from 'uninspired'?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Peg, posted 02-10-2009 3:42 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 12965
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 92 of 174 (498495)
02-11-2009 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Peg
02-10-2009 3:42 AM


Re: gimme those oldtime MS
quote:

Also if you look at the Gospel of Luke we see that he used public records to write down the genealogy of Jesus.

No, we don't see that Luke did any such thing. Nor do we have any good reason to suppose that Luke had access to such records or that they even existed when Luke was writing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Peg, posted 02-10-2009 3:42 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Nighttrain, posted 02-11-2009 8:54 PM PaulK has not yet responded
 Message 95 by Peg, posted 02-13-2009 12:24 AM PaulK has responded

    
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 93 of 174 (498567)
02-11-2009 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by PaulK
02-11-2009 7:05 AM


Re: gimme those oldtime MS
And of course, Luke, who supposedly traveled widely with Paul, never mentions his former companion in GLuke. Maybe there was a surfeit of Lukes around that time?
This message is a reply to:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 2425 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 94 of 174 (498708)
02-13-2009 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Nighttrain
02-11-2009 5:43 AM


Re: gimme those oldtime MS
Nighttrain writes:

what`s the filter we use to separate 'inspired' writings from 'uninspired'?

thats a really good question Nighttrain, I'll have to look into it further... here is a scripture to start it off though...

1John 4:1 Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world.

not all claims of inspiration were true according to the Apostle John, if that rang true in his day, then it must surely ring true in ours

there must have been a way to 'test' if the expression was inspired in Johns day... there must be a way for us to test it too. I'll do some research and get back to you soon.

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 2425 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 95 of 174 (498710)
02-13-2009 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by PaulK
02-11-2009 7:05 AM


Re: gimme those oldtime MS
PaulK writes:

No, we don't see that Luke did any such thing. Nor do we have any good reason to suppose that Luke had access to such records or that they even existed when Luke was writing.

According to Jospehus (jewish historian 1st century) the priests kept accurate records of the tribes of their people for the purpose of the Priests to be able to marry only a woman of the priestly tribe. Josephus mentions these records that stem back 2,000 years and points out that no matter where the jews lived, they sent the records of births and marriages to the priests in Jerusalem to make a record of them.

quote:
For our forefathers did not only appoint the best of these priests, and those that attended upon the Divine worship, for that design from the beginning, but made provision that the stock of the priests should continue unmixed and pure; for he who is partaker of the priesthood must propagate of a wife of the same nation, without having any regard to money, or any other dignities; but he is to make a scrutiny, and take his wife's genealogy from the ancient tables, and procure many witnesses to it. (7)

And this is our practice not only in Judea, but wheresoever any body of men of our nation do live; and even there an exact catalogue of our priests' marriages is kept; I mean at Egypt and at Babylon, or in any other place of the rest of the habitable earth, whithersoever our priests are scattered; for they send to Jerusalem the ancient names of their parents in writing, as well as those of their remoter ancestors, and signify who are the witnesses also.

But if any war falls out, such as have fallen out a great many of them already, when Antiochus Epiphanes made an invasion upon our country, as also when Pompey the Great and Quintilius Varus did so also, and principally in the wars that have happened in our own times,

those priests that survive them compose new tables of genealogy out of the old records, and examine the circumstances of the women that remain; for still they do not admit of those that have been captives, as suspecting that they had conversation with some foreigners. But what is the strongest argument of our exact management
in this matter is what I am now going to say, that we have the names of our high priests from father to son set down in our records for the interval of two thousand years;


It was thru these records that the priests were able to determine which family group the women of Isreal were from and so choose a wife accordingly.

this is strong evidence that the genealogical records of the jews were real and available for people to look at.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by PaulK, posted 02-11-2009 7:05 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2009 2:20 AM Peg has responded
 Message 97 by Nighttrain, posted 02-13-2009 3:59 AM Peg has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12965
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 96 of 174 (498714)
02-13-2009 2:20 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Peg
02-13-2009 12:24 AM


Re: gimme those oldtime MS
I note that you provide absolutely no support for your assertion that there is any indication in Luke, that Luke used any public records. Probably because - as we both know - that isn't true.

quote:

According to Jospehus (jewish historian 1st century) the priests kept accurate records of the tribes of their people for the purpose of the Priests to be able to marry only a woman of the priestly tribe.

According to your own quote the records are constructed in this way:


...an exact catalogue of our priests' marriages is kept; I mean at Egypt and at Babylon, or in any other place of the rest of the habitable earth, whithersoever our priests are scattered; for they send to Jerusalem the ancient names of their parents in writing, as well as those of their remoter ancestors...

Joseph was not a priest, so he would not have done this.

Also Josephus admits that records were lost on a number of occasions - including the Jewish Revolt which happened before Luke wrote.

So where is your evidence that records of Joseph's genealogy existed and were available to Luke ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Peg, posted 02-13-2009 12:24 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 97 of 174 (498717)
02-13-2009 3:59 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Peg
02-13-2009 12:24 AM


Re: gimme those oldtime MS
Peg, take Josephus with a deal of caution. Apart from a chequered career, he describes mythical creatures as real (can`t recall the critters offhand, PaulK may know), and, while the defending general of Galilee, he failed to note the thousands and thousands of people healed by Jesus a generation or so earlier. Makes the TF and the James reference small potatoes compared to THAT oversight.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Peg, posted 02-13-2009 12:24 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Peg, posted 02-13-2009 6:06 AM Nighttrain has not yet responded
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Peg
Member (Idle past 2425 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 98 of 174 (498721)
02-13-2009 6:06 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Nighttrain
02-13-2009 3:59 AM


Re: gimme those oldtime MS
Nighttrain writes:

he failed to note the thousands and thousands of people healed by Jesus a generation or so earlier. Makes the TF and the James reference small potatoes compared to THAT oversight.

are you saying you believe that Jesus did perform such miracles?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Nighttrain, posted 02-13-2009 3:59 AM Nighttrain has not yet responded

    
Peg
Member (Idle past 2425 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 99 of 174 (498722)
02-13-2009 6:07 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by PaulK
02-13-2009 2:20 AM


Re: gimme those oldtime MS
Oh dear

forget it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2009 2:20 AM PaulK has not yet responded

    
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 596 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 100 of 174 (498732)
02-13-2009 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Nighttrain
02-13-2009 3:59 AM


Re: Dragons and Sea-Dogs, Oh My!
Nighttrain writes:

Peg, take Josephus with a deal of caution. Apart from a chequered career, he describes mythical creatures as real (can`t recall the critters offhand, PaulK may know), and, while the defending general of Galilee, he failed to note the thousands and thousands of people healed by Jesus a generation or so earlier. Makes the TF and the James reference small potatoes compared to THAT oversight.

Yes like the flying serpants (small dragons?) that Moses staved off with his staff and baskets of birds (Egyptian Ibes or Ibis) as described here in Josephus' work "Antiquity of the Jews" Book 2, Chapter 10 "How Moses made war with the Ethiopians":

Josephus writes:

But Moses prevented the enemies, and took and led his army before those enemies were apprized of his attacking them; for he did not march by the river, but by land, where he gave a wonderful demonstration of his sagacity; for when the ground was difficult to be passed over, because of the multitude of serpents, (which it produces in vast numbers, and, indeed, is singular in some of those productions, which other countries do not breed, and yet such as are worse than others in power and mischief, and an unusual fierceness of sight, some of which ascend out of the ground unseen, and also fly in the air, and so come upon men at unawares, and do them a mischief,) Moses invented a wonderful stratagem to preserve the army safe, and without hurt; for he made baskets, like unto arks, of sedge, and filled them with ibes, and carried them along with them; which animal is the greatest enemy to serpents imaginable, for they fly from them when they come near them; and as they fly they are caught and devoured by them, as if it were done by the harts; but the ibes are tame creatures, and only enemies to the serpentine kind: but about these ibes I say no more at present, since the Greeks themselves are not unacquainted with this sort of bird. As soon, therefore, as Moses was come to the land which was the breeder of these serpents, he let loose the ibes, and by their means repelled the serpentine kind, and used them for his assistants before the army came upon that ground.

This story is also somewhat paralled by some scripture in the Bible:

Deuteronomy 8:15 writes:

Who led thee through that great and terrible wilderness, wherein were fiery serpents, and scorpions, and drought, where there was no water; who brought thee forth water out of the rock of flint

Numbers 21:6-8 writes:

And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

Pliny supports this concept of flying serpents in his Natural History:

Pliny writes:

The Egyptians also invoke their ibis against the incursions of serpents

BTW, Josephus also tells stories about a dog-fish and several other strange mythological creatures many of which are likely borrowed from Greek and Egyptian mythology.

Hmm, do I sense some mytholigical origin for many of the Biblical stories here? Though I must admit that it is possible that many of these mythological creatures/animals may have a small kernal of truth in that many may be highly embelished stories of real animals i.e. dog-fish=shark?, leviathon=whale shark or whale?, flying serpents=who knows what? which the ancients were not familiar with.

It is amazing what you find when you actually do some research.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.


For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan
This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Nighttrain, posted 02-13-2009 3:59 AM Nighttrain has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Peg, posted 02-15-2009 3:39 AM DevilsAdvocate has responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 2454 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 101 of 174 (498733)
02-13-2009 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by PaulK
02-13-2009 2:20 AM


Waste of time
I don't think you fully understand the way discussions work Paul ;)

We are supposed to believe everything that Peg says is true without asking for supporting evidence.

Peg is allowed to just make things up and we have to accept them as being true.

It doesn't matter if we know Peg is inventing things, she is allowed to say whatever she wants to maintain her skewed version of history, but don't expect her to provide evidence for it.

It must be great to have followers who question nothing and accept ridiculous claims without even looking in to their plausibility.


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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 102 of 174 (498765)
02-13-2009 5:52 PM


OP or not to OP, that is the question
Here we are round post 100, and still no definitive answer to which is the REAL Version. Can we assume there is no real Version, just muddled collections that contain additions, omissions, conflations and dogma?
Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by bluescat48, posted 02-13-2009 10:21 PM Nighttrain has not yet responded

    
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 1685 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 103 of 174 (498787)
02-13-2009 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Nighttrain
02-13-2009 5:52 PM


Re: OP or not to OP, that is the question
Can we assume there is no real Version, just muddled collections that contain additions, omissions, conflations and dogma?

That would seem to be the logical answer.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


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ramoss
Member
Posts: 3030
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 104 of 174 (498794)
02-14-2009 12:55 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Peg
02-10-2009 3:42 AM


Re: gimme those oldtime MS
quote:

Also if you look at the Gospel of Luke we see that he used public records to write down the genealogy of Jesus. Now those records of births and deaths were not inspired writings but still Luke used them and it didn't make his writing any less inspired.

Really?? This is an interesting claim. Could you provide any evidence of it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Peg, posted 02-10-2009 3:42 AM Peg has not yet responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 2425 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 105 of 174 (498895)
02-15-2009 3:39 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by DevilsAdvocate
02-13-2009 8:18 AM


Re: Dragons and Sea-Dogs, Oh My!
serpents are snakes

there is nothing mythical about encountering snakes in a wilderness region

perhaps his description of 'flying serpents' isnt far from the truth

http://www.flyingsnake.org/

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-13-2009 8:18 AM DevilsAdvocate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-15-2009 8:49 AM Peg has responded
 Message 111 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-15-2009 9:31 AM Peg has responded

    
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