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Author Topic:   Which Version of the Bible is the Word of God?
Peg
Member (Idle past 2491 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 106 of 174 (498896)
02-15-2009 3:45 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Brian
02-13-2009 8:22 AM


Re: Waste of time
Brian writes:

It doesn't matter if we know Peg is inventing things, she is allowed to say whatever she wants to maintain her skewed version of history, but don't expect her to provide evidence for it.

if you dont mind, i provided evidence for the births and marriages register of the jewish people. I did not make it up nor do i need too.

Discussions certainly do not work when some simply breezes over the evidence provided.

If Josephus is wrong about the records he was writing about, prove it.

I presented my evidence, now you present yours...that's how discussions work.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Brian, posted 02-13-2009 8:22 AM Brian has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by PaulK, posted 02-15-2009 4:21 AM Peg has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13231
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 107 of 174 (498897)
02-15-2009 4:21 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by Peg
02-15-2009 3:45 AM


Re: Waste of time
quote:

if you dont mind, i provided evidence for the births and marriages register of the jewish people. I did not make it up nor do i need too.

No, you provided evidence for a register of Jewish priest's marriages - and one which had been disrupted by war.

quote:

Discussions certainly do not work when some simply breezes over the evidence provided.

Then stop doing it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Peg, posted 02-15-2009 3:45 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Peg, posted 02-15-2009 5:09 AM PaulK has responded

    
Peg
Member (Idle past 2491 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 108 of 174 (498900)
02-15-2009 5:09 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by PaulK
02-15-2009 4:21 AM


Re: Waste of time
if priests could easily check the register to find out if a particular woman was from the priestly tribe then obviously the register contained accurate information about which tribe she was from, likely this was thru her fathers line.

the only way the register could do this is if it listed all of the tribes and their descendants

If it did not list all of the descendants, then how could a priest know if a woman was of a priestly tribe or not?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by PaulK, posted 02-15-2009 4:21 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by PaulK, posted 02-15-2009 5:14 AM Peg has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13231
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 109 of 174 (498901)
02-15-2009 5:14 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Peg
02-15-2009 5:09 AM


Re: Waste of time
quote:

if priests could easily check the register to find out if a particular woman was from the priestly tribe then obviously the register contained accurate information about which tribe she was from, likely this was thru her fathers line.

IF they could. But where does it say that they could ? And I thought you insisted that Mary was of the House of David (tribe of Judah), which would rule her out of being in the priestly tribe (Levi).

quote:

the only way the register could do this is if it listed all of the tribes and their descendants

Obviously not, since the priestly line were all of the tribe of Levi.

quote:

If it did not list all of the descendants, then how could a priest know if a woman was of a priestly tribe or not?

Why would they have to list descendants of other tribes to work out if a woman was a Levite or not ?

Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Peg, posted 02-15-2009 5:09 AM Peg has not yet responded

    
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 663 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 110 of 174 (498915)
02-15-2009 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Peg
02-15-2009 3:39 AM


Re: Dragons and Sea-Dogs, Oh My!
Peg writes:

serpents are snakes
there is nothing mythical about encountering snakes in a wilderness region

perhaps his description of 'flying serpents' isnt far from the truth

http://www.flyingsnake.org/

So Peg, is this a miracle or not? Are you trying to rationalize God's miracles away naturalistically? I am just trying to understand how you relate the two: miracles vs natural phenomena. I am curious how Christians, such as yourself, equate the two. Can all the "miracles" in the Bible just be embellished stories of natural phenomena?

Furthermore, if these are just stories of naturally occuring phenomena, where does God fit into these stories? Why would God have to cause an already occurring natural phenomena i.e. snakes jumping out of trees?


For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan
This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Peg, posted 02-15-2009 3:39 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Peg, posted 02-16-2009 2:07 AM DevilsAdvocate has not yet responded

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 663 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 111 of 174 (498921)
02-15-2009 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Peg
02-15-2009 3:39 AM


Re: Dragons and Sea-Dogs, Oh My!
serpents are snakes
there is nothing mythical about encountering snakes in a wilderness region

perhaps his description of 'flying serpents' isnt far from the truth

http://www.flyingsnake.org/

I had a feeling you would bring up the flying snake thing.

BTW, these "flying" or rather gliding snakes (much like flying squirrels and the like) live in Southeast Asia not southwest Asia (I think the furthest west they are found are in India) and the Sinai Peninsula in which Moses and his Biblically journeyed had very little vedgetation much less large trees from which these snakes would have jumped from.

Here is a map of the population of "flying" snakes:


Click to enlarge

According to Numbers 21:4-9 the Israelits were journeying from Mount Hor (near Petra in modern day Jordan) south towards the Gulf Aquaba and around then the "Land of Edom". This route is along the Arabah part of the Great Rift Valley south of the Dead Sea and is very arid and sparse of vedgetation.

These snakes BTW jump off limbs of trees and can only glide a maximum of about 20-40 feet (from a limb approximately 30 feet high). The snakes are mildly venomous but are not toxic to humans.

Here is a paper discussing there
A 3-D kinematic analysis of gliding in a flying snake, Chrysopelea paradisi

I am not saying this event is impossible that it happened, but I think the story is highly embillished and possibly borrowed from earlier stories of flying snakes from the east (possibly India?). Just a thought.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.


For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan
This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Peg, posted 02-15-2009 3:39 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Peg, posted 02-18-2009 3:51 AM DevilsAdvocate has not yet responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2170
From: Big Spring, TX, USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 6.1


Message 112 of 174 (499021)
02-16-2009 2:03 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Peg
01-27-2009 2:48 AM


Re: What is a "literal translation"?
Peg writes:

all bibles in their original languages are the word of God

all bibles that have been translated correctly are the word of God

I would even go so far as to say that all bible translations are the word of God. Unfortunately, some of them are just badly translated.

Yet in Message 9

Peg writes:

The book of Enoch is not considered an inspired book, it was never a part of the biblical cannon so using it in an argument against the bible is pointless. Its not part of the bible.

Strange that this article states:

quote:
While this book today is non-canonical in most Christian Churches, it was explicitly quoted[2]:8 in the New Testament (Letter of Jude 1:14-15) and by many of the early Church Fathers. The Ethiopian Orthodox Church to this day regards it to be canonical.

So if the "Ethiopian Orthodox Church to this day regards it to be canonical" yet "The book of Enoch is not considered an inspired book, it was never a part of the biblical cannon {sic} so using it in an argument against the bible is pointless. Its not part of the bible," how does that logically fit in with "all bibles in their original languages are the word of God?"

Edited by anglagard, : clarity


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon

The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Peg, posted 01-27-2009 2:48 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Peg, posted 02-16-2009 2:16 AM anglagard has responded

    
Peg
Member (Idle past 2491 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 113 of 174 (499022)
02-16-2009 2:07 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by DevilsAdvocate
02-15-2009 8:49 AM


Re: Dragons and Sea-Dogs, Oh My!
DevilsAdvocate writes:

So Peg, is this a miracle or not? Are you trying to rationalize God's miracles away naturalistically? I am just trying to understand how you relate the two: miracles vs natural phenomena.

many acts that God performs are as simple as the forced occurance of a natural phenomenon

for instance the hail that rained down on the egyptions and the plagues of gnats, frogs and locusts...all natural phenonemon yet bought about at Gods direction

whereas some some things are not naturally occuring and so are called 'miracles' because they do defy the laws of nature...eg Aarons rod turning into a snake, the pillar of fire that led the nation thru the wilderness

Its not beyond Gods ability to use whatever method he chooses... he may cause an earthquake or he may raise a person from the dead

both are miracles because they've been caused by Gods intervention.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-15-2009 8:49 AM DevilsAdvocate has not yet responded

    
Peg
Member (Idle past 2491 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 114 of 174 (499024)
02-16-2009 2:16 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by anglagard
02-16-2009 2:03 AM


Re: What is a "literal translation"?
anglagard writes:

So if the "Ethiopian Orthodox Church to this day regards it to be canonical" how does that fit in with "all bibles in their original languages are the word of God?"

when i say 'bible' im talking about the Canon

its not hard to trace the history of the cannon to know that the book of Enoch was not considered by the early church, or the Jews, an inspired book.

this comes back to Nighttrains question about what constitutes a book 'inspired'

a topic for a new thread perhaps?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by anglagard, posted 02-16-2009 2:03 AM anglagard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by anglagard, posted 02-16-2009 2:19 AM Peg has responded

    
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2170
From: Big Spring, TX, USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 6.1


Message 115 of 174 (499026)
02-16-2009 2:19 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Peg
02-16-2009 2:16 AM


Re: What is a "literal translation"?
Peg writes:

when i say 'bible' im talking about the Canon

Which one?


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon

The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza


This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Peg, posted 02-16-2009 2:16 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Peg, posted 02-16-2009 4:40 AM anglagard has not yet responded

    
Peg
Member (Idle past 2491 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 116 of 174 (499038)
02-16-2009 4:40 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by anglagard
02-16-2009 2:19 AM


RE: Which One
The one that Jesus Christ identified in his day.

He accepted the three basic divisions of what is today commonly called the 'Old Testament' which was made up of The Law, The Prophets and the Psalms.
for example, he said 'These are my words which I spoke to you while I was yet with you, that all the things written in the law of Moses and in the Prophets and Psalms about me must be fulfilled.' (Luke 24:44)

As further evidence of the Old Testament and its division into 3 sections are Josephus's words around the year 100 C.E., where he confirms that by then the canon of the Hebrew Scriptures had been fixed for a long time.

quote:
He wrote: “We do not possess myriads of inconsistent books, conflicting with each other. Our books, those which are justly accredited, are but two and twenty, and contain the record of all time. Of these, five are the books of Moses, comprising the laws and the traditional history from the birth of man down to the death of the lawgiver. . . . From the death of Moses until Artaxerxes, who succeeded Xerxes as king of Persia, the prophets subsequent to Moses wrote the history of the events of their own times in thirteen books. The remaining four books contain hymns [Psalms] to God and precepts for the conduct of human life.”

thereafter, the writings of the Apostles of Christ became the basis for the Christian Greek Scriptures and these books were confirmed as legitimate by the early church fathers.

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by anglagard, posted 02-16-2009 2:19 AM anglagard has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Nighttrain, posted 02-16-2009 6:56 AM Peg has responded
 Message 118 by Nighttrain, posted 02-16-2009 6:59 AM Peg has not yet responded

    
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 1556 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 117 of 174 (499046)
02-16-2009 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Peg
02-16-2009 4:40 AM


RE: Which One
The one that Jesus Christ identified in his day.

The Septuagint-LXX? Quotations in the Gospels follow the LXX.

As further evidence of the Old Testament and its division into 3 sections are Josephus's words around the year 100 C.E., where he confirms that by then the canon of the Hebrew Scriptures had been fixed for a long time.

Which was Josephus talking about, the LXX or the Proto-Masoretic?

Well, the Qumran Scrolls say otherwise with a number of versions, so who`s right?

If it was fixed for a long time when Josephus wrote c.95 C.E., why was the vetting process at the Academy at Jamnia necessary c. 100?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Peg, posted 02-16-2009 4:40 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Peg, posted 02-18-2009 3:30 AM Nighttrain has not yet responded

    
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 1556 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 118 of 174 (499047)
02-16-2009 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Peg
02-16-2009 4:40 AM


RE: Which One
thereafter, the writings of the Apostles of Christ became the basis for the Christian Greek Scriptures and these books were confirmed as legitimate by the early church fathers.

Which early church father do you want to tackle first?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Peg, posted 02-16-2009 4:40 AM Peg has not yet responded

    
Peg
Member (Idle past 2491 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 119 of 174 (499282)
02-18-2009 3:30 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Nighttrain
02-16-2009 6:56 AM


RE: Which One
it was at the temple in Jerusalem where many scrolls were located...perhaps even some of the original writings. Josephus would have been talking about these scrolls and the christians would have been quoting passages from these scrolls also

the scribes of ancient times had been making copies of the original writings continually from the time they were penned


This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Nighttrain, posted 02-16-2009 6:56 AM Nighttrain has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by PaulK, posted 02-18-2009 4:22 AM Peg has responded

    
Peg
Member (Idle past 2491 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 120 of 174 (499284)
02-18-2009 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by DevilsAdvocate
02-15-2009 9:31 AM


Re: Dragons and Sea-Dogs, Oh My!
perhaps traders from asia transported these snakes years earlier the same way they used to carry other exotic animals from place to place

perhaps some of these snakes were released or escaped into the wild and they were jumping off rocky cliff faces

perhaps it wasnt these types of snakes at all but the point is that there are snakes that do this... who knows, maybe normal every day snakes can do this too


This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-15-2009 9:31 AM DevilsAdvocate has not yet responded

    
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