Jesus; the Torah, Nevi'im, and Psalms (Part 2)

Prophecy simply means: preaching. Heck, even Peter's mother-in-law "prophesied!" Don't we all?I think all preachers like to make predictions. "Mark my word." They say. "It shall come to pass." But no one really knows the future.Official prediction is sometimes called prognostication. In the Bible: the office of Prognosticator is characterized as a useless profession. Why? Because ... No one knows the future. Not even our beloved Isaiah: Isaiah Was a False Prophet

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

Thanks for the references.This is a subject I have yet to fully explore but I have learned some very interesting things.Some prophets were executioners.

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"I hewed [them] by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth:" Hosea 6:5

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If you think this is simply a metaphor indicating harsh words, consider the 450 men Elijah butchered after the Fire Power demonstration at Mt. Carmel.

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"Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And they took them: and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there." 1Kings 18:40

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It was a prophet (Samuel) who appointed the first king of Israel. We know that the people of Israel did not live in a vacuum of international dominion, so, by whose authority did Sam make Saul a king?Elijah, most famous of all the prophets, appears to be working for an empire (probably Assyria) by whom he is authorized to appoint kings for both: Israel and her traditional enemy - Syria. The instructions which Elijah receives from his 'boss' are very interesting. It sounds like his most important concern is that the people in these lands be loyal to him. He apparently doesn't give a rip if the rest of them wipe each other out.

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"And the LORD said unto him, Go, return on thy way to the wilderness of Damascus: and when thou comest, anoint Hazael [to be] king over Syria: And Jehu the son of Nimshi shalt thou anoint [to be] king over Israel: and Elisha the son of Shaphat of Abelmeholah shalt thou anoint [to be] prophet in thy room. And it shall come to pass, [that] him that escapeth the sword of Hazael shall Jehu slay: and him that escapeth from the sword of Jehu shall Elisha slay. Yet I have left [me] seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him." 1Kings 19:15-18 KJV

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The king of Syria then proceeds to make war on Israel and does so quite successfully for many years thereafter.Let the reader understand that Baal's represented the political influence of the Phonecian ('Philistine,' AKA Palestinian) empire in the land of Canaan. There were at least three empires vying for control of that real estate: Egypt, Assyria, and Phonecia.Prophets were considered to be dangerous men. If it were not so, then why would people try to kill them and why would Jehovah tell people to do them no harm?

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"Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm." Psalm 105:15

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They were at one time, apparently, a sort of newscorp. They had a "school," held conferences, and were known for hanging out in the nude (1 Samuel 19:24).Bad prophecy apparently became a serious problem, and it was predicted that there would come a time when it would be dangerous to admit that you were a prophet (Zechariah 13:5; Cf. Amos 7:14).That's all I've got for now.

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

Great story, and good point. Experience enhances one's ability to predict the outcome. 'futurist'?'analyst'?'fortune teller'?

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

Bold Emphasis Mine Throughout Sounds hypo-hypothetical to me. Of course Jesus was born of a virgin. Many of us are. But that doesn't mean Isaiah was talking about him.Did you miss our discussion about 'virgin' birth? ???Isaiah 7 is clearly a prophecy regarding the fall of Samaria. You got that right! That's four if's in the space of one sentence; two explicit and two implied. You write a lot of 'if's into your argument. Are you approaching this as a purely hypothetical matter?Your misquote of John 18:36 leaves much to be desired. The word "earth" does not appear in the verse and is not what "world" meant to the translators; AND you left out that part of the verse which is critical to understanding what Jesus means by "here." Where is "here?" Following is the complete verse from the King James Version.

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Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

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As you may know, that's a pretty good translation with the exception that its English is not well understood my modern readers (present company excepted, of course). For world (kosmo), read: 'world order,' or 'arrangement,' or my personal take on it: 'administration.'Modern versions butcher this for no apparent reason (other that to bolster a traditional misunderstanding), rendering the Greek for "here" to read "the world," "this world," "this kind," "elsewhere," etc. The best alternative I have found to date is in the New American Standard Version and reads: "of this realm," and contains a footnote which reads: "Literally: from here." Realm may also be understood as 'administration.' (IMHO)To paraphrase: "If I were a ruler in this administration then my servants would fight to keep me out of the hands of the Jews; but this is not where my sovereignty comes from." The statement may have been somewhat cryptic, even to the judge who subsequently questions him further in order to be sure he understands what the man is saying. But I see nothing here, other than a long tradition of superstition, to indicate that Jesus was talking about a 'spiritual' kingdom. What the heck is a "spiritual kingdom" and what good is it against swords and artillery?Events which follow make it clear that the judge believed him to be an aspirant to the throne of Israel. That is what the prophets had predicted he would be. That is what Nathaniel (in whom is no guile) declared him to be. And that is why he was called "the Christ." There is no reason for me to believe that he was talking about a "spiritual kingdom." But it's a fantastic fantasy!

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

I must have missed something. I don't know where this is coming from. But, I'll have to agree that Samuel and Elijah were in a different class than Isaiah and Jeremiah. Seems to me that the first two are more like Judges (Hangin' Judges). Indeed. And yet, Moses seems to suggest that he himself is a prophet, when he says: The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me ... Deuteronomy 18:15 RSVJesus, also, is called a prophet: Matthew 21:11. Apparently so.In my search this morning I have learned that the root words in both Greek and Hebrew imply: inspired person, or inspired speaker. They may also be understood as one who predicts but that is not the primary usage.This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 05-12-2005 08:20 AM

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

Thanks Brian,That has been my opinion for some time but I'm sure you know how difficult, or impossible, it is to prove a negative.I'm off to work now. Looking forward to the next installment of this fascinating thread. db

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

That's an interesting statement which I've never heard before: "the physical race of God's son." My first impulse is to imagine that that it would also be the "physical race" of God. But then God has no physical being, yes?I think you know that the answer to this question must be NO, unless the person seen by Abraham and Moses was actually "God the Son" and not the Father God (as my former church teaches). But that blows the whole "incarnation" fantasy doesn't it? If Jesus had a physical body before he was born of Mary then the baby gets thrown out with the bath water. Yes? I find it interesting that you cite a number of passages by book, chapter and verse; except that one which you "definitely believe was an on-purpose prophecy of Christ by God."Why not reference that passage so we can examine it here?

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

If you mean: "What's the difference if we can't breathe," then yes, I'd have to agree.
For that is the literal meaning and primary definition of the word: "spirit."If you mean: "What's the difference if we have no zest for life," then again, I'd have to agree with you.
For that is a metaphorical meaning and secondary definition of the word: "spirit."If you mean: "What's the difference if we have nothing to smoke," then I would have to say, You need to know that every king of Israel was called the Christ. This is clear in the Septuagint and in the Vulgate. Modern Bibles have removed Christ from the Old Testament by means of selective translation. First replace Christ where the word has been removed and then see what needs to be done.I can "prophesy" one outcome of such an undertaking: The political nature of Christianity will be clear and the significance of expressions like: "LORD Jesus," and, "King Jesus," will be plain, even to those who call themselves "Christian." The fact that they were localized does not strip them of significance; and I think 'gossip' is a harsh characterization of the timeless, universal, and passionate drama that is the story of Jesus.db

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

This is a continuation of the thread re: whether the Old Testament predicts Jesus. I take it you believe it does. What you call a 'form of prophecy' I call quoting out of context. It's a colorful technique for spicing up speeches but it's not a path to knowledge. The details of the prophecy you cite make clear that it was fulfilled long ago in someone other than Jesus and that Jesus fulfilled none of the elements of that prophecy. Let's look at the part from Hebrews.The writer quotes from many places in his construction of this chapter but at verse 5 he is quoting from two places: Psalm 2:7 and 1 Chronicles 17:13. These, and the rest of his quotes, are from passages which deal with recognized kings (all of whom were considered to be sons of God).The 'prophecy' of 1 Chronicles 17:13 -- "I will be his father, and he shall be my son: ..." 1Chronicles 17:13 -- is reiterated at 22:9,10 where it gives us the name of the son in question, which is: Solomon. The son of God mentioned in this 'prophecy' does the things which the prophecy predicts he will. Jesus did none of those things.I believe Paul was promoting the idea of King Jesus; reminding people that Israel's king is a son of God and stands in the place of God.He also seems to be saying that kings outrank angels.

(Given enough time, any prediction can come true.) Actually, it did happen. Under Solomon, Israel enjoyed years of peace and prosperity. Given enough time, any prophecy might be fulfilled; whether as intended by the one who wrote it, or as re-interpreted in some new unrelated sense by a wide-eyed revisionist, a million years down the road.It's a copout to say that a prophecy has yet to be fulfilled. Jesus claimed it would all be fulfilled in his own day ("this generation"). Try to persuade me that 2000 years is a single generation! Working within the myth, of course. But kings do outrank angels, according to the scriptures which the author cites. Besides:Any king may be called: "the son of God."
Every king is called: "the LORD's anointed."
And all kings stand in the place of God, to their people.The specific examples Paul gives of kings who outrank angels are, ostensibly, David and Solomon.

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"For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee?"

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This was apparently said to David at Psalm 2:7.

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And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?" Hebrews 1:5

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This was definitely said of Solomon at 1 Chronicles 22:10.These things were probably said to every anointed king on the day of his inauguration (coronation). This message has been edited by doctrbill, 05-14-2005 04:53 PM

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

As I see it, the author of Hebrews is attempting to establish the divine kingship of Jesus by utilizing the examples of David and Solomon, both of whom sat on "the throne of the LORD." 1 Chronicles 29:23This was a divine office. The throne of the LORD (and the sons of David to sit on it) is what was to endure forever. Jesus represents a continuation, or rather: a re-emergence of that dynasty.Paul's quote from Psalm 45 is, in itself, a telling citation. This Psalm is addressed to the King, and contains such interesting humanistic assertions as: The bits about God may seem out of place unless one understands that these kings were also called 'gods.' Isn't it interesting that the author of the psalm has to specify which God he is writing about? As if there are more than one? As if the king, on hearing the song, might think the poet is talking about his majesty; as he does indeed seem to be doing in verse 6.Off the top of my head now, but I cannot recall any direct statement about anyone's "throne" lasting "forever" other than the several assertions to that effect on behalf of David and Solomon. It follows, of course, that if the throne of David lasts forever then the "throne of the LORD" also lasts forever, because they are, for all practical purposes, one and the same; much like the president and the presidency. The throne of God (elohim) may or may not refer to the king himself but in the context it would seem that it does refer to him and in so doing agrees with a lot of other scripture referencing royal personages in this manner.I believe I do understand the context of Hebrews chapter one. Paul (or whomever) seems to be saying that the sovereignty of the Jewish nation continues: "under god, with liberty and justice for all."

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -