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Author Topic:   Belief Statements - Robinrohan
nator
Member (Idle past 2057 days)
Posts: 12961
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 76 of 99 (338179)
08-05-2006 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by robinrohan
08-05-2006 9:29 PM


Re: Thank you
Relying only on empirical evidence and logic, one can't say one purpose is better than another purpose", then I agree.

quote:
Well, obviously that's what I meant.

No, it isn't obvious at all, nor do I think it's what you said. Maybe it's what you meant.

You said, in effect, "it is objectively true that all purposes are of the same value".

That is a very different thing from "can't be judged solely empirically".

I'll agree it can't be judged solely empirically. But I stop there. I don't then accept the conclusion that they're all the same, only that it can't be judged on this basis. Period.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by robinrohan, posted 08-05-2006 9:29 PM robinrohan has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by robinrohan, posted 08-06-2006 8:25 AM nator has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 77 of 99 (338180)
08-05-2006 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by robinrohan
08-05-2006 9:23 PM


Re: Windows to the soul indeed
Have to add that what I was talking about, contemplating the I -- not looking in the mirror, which is more the "me" I think -- isn't spooky because it isn't me, it's definitely me, or rather I, and maybe it's spooky because it IS I.

I've been trying to recreate that experience and haven't been able to. I did get into it briefly yesterday. That's what made me aware of the spookiness of it.

Just tried it again. The late afternoon sun on the desk, dappled sun because of all the trees out the window, creates an aching feeling for some reason, a sort of sadness. Existential sadness I want to say. I've noticed this phenomenon many times, simple natural phenomena provoking such specific feelings. It seems to make no sense. There's no content to it, but the feeling is there. Just from the sunlight, nothing else. I look at the sunlight, the feeling is there; I look away, the feeling goes away. So strange. Anyway, I stopped and tried to look at the I that is experiencing that aching feeling. And I got a little feeling of the spookiness.

But I still can't say any better why or what it is.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by robinrohan, posted 08-05-2006 9:23 PM robinrohan has not yet responded

    
nator
Member (Idle past 2057 days)
Posts: 12961
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 78 of 99 (338181)
08-05-2006 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by iano
08-05-2006 9:28 PM


Re: Windows to the soul indeed
quote:
I assumed reflection on self whilst doing so.

Yes, of course.

I do not suffer from self-loathing or think myself fundamentally deficient as others seem to, so I can only presume that this is why I am not horribly disturbed by looking in the mirror.

quote:
You can assert that you do do if you like.

If I had a webcam, I could do a live broadcast of myself doing it.

quote:
But how do you know that you are doing that.

That's what my brain is telling me, though I could be wrong.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by iano, posted 08-05-2006 9:28 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Faith, posted 08-05-2006 10:34 PM nator has responded
 Message 90 by iano, posted 08-07-2006 4:24 PM nator has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 79 of 99 (338185)
08-05-2006 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by nator
08-05-2006 9:56 PM


Re: Windows to the soul indeed
I do not suffer from self-loathing or think myself fundamentally deficient as others seem to, so I can only presume that this is why I am not horribly disturbed by looking in the mirror.

Schraf, this is such a misrepresentation and it's hard to believe you don't realize that and just enjoy mischaracterizing people.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by nator, posted 08-05-2006 9:56 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by nator, posted 08-06-2006 6:42 AM Faith has responded

    
sidelined 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 80 of 99 (338188)
08-05-2006 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by iano
08-05-2006 9:21 PM


Re: Windows to the soul indeed
iano
Your taking as close a glimpse into eternity as one can. You are looking at you looking at you looking at you. Perpetual you.

This is, of course, assuming that you are perpetual. I cannot say I have ever felt that sense of myself when looking in a mirror.

Which any person will do if they permit the self-examination that tends from the act

You find self-reflection while gazing at yourself in a mirror?

We spend a lot of our time escaping ourselves and to look into ones own eyes allows no escape from yourself.

Well I have found no answer for the tendency to escape from life by looking in a mirror since, to me, this is simply another escape of sorts. Deep introspection, for myself, is not found by simply examining oneself, however deeply, but by observing oneself through interaction with others.

No place to run or hide. One must look away. Looking at a dead spirit is looking at death. It is spooky. Or looking at an alive spirit which is still a sinner. For sin is ugly

This is only a problem if you have a mindset that forces you to view the world as such. For myself, there is no such supernatural fear driving my reflection of myself. Sin is a connotation that extends beyond the actual wrong that is descibed by the sin. Not all sins are black and white and many are of far greeater complexity than simply being a violation of some ancient injunction against such behaviour.

It is not spooky in the least unless you assign a belief to frame it so in your mind. I find it sad that such is your lot in life and I cannot personally share your fear of the world.


Dear Mrs Chown, Ignore your son's attempts to teach you physics. Physics isn't the most important thing. Love is.

Best wishes, Richard Feynman.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by iano, posted 08-05-2006 9:21 PM iano has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2057 days)
Posts: 12961
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 81 of 99 (338202)
08-06-2006 6:42 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Faith
08-05-2006 10:34 PM


Re: Windows to the soul indeed
I do not suffer from self-loathing or think myself fundamentally deficient as others seem to, so I can only presume that this is why I am not horribly disturbed by looking in the mirror.

quote:
Schraf, this is such a misrepresentation and it's hard to believe you don't realize that and just enjoy mischaracterizing people.

I call it like I find it, Faith.

I'm not the only one who comes to this conclusion.

Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Faith, posted 08-05-2006 10:34 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Faith, posted 08-06-2006 10:25 AM nator has responded

    
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 99 (338209)
08-06-2006 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by nator
08-05-2006 9:49 PM


Re: Thank you
You said, in effect, "it is objectively true that all purposes are of the same value".

That's right. If a purpose is subjective, which I assume all our purposes are, then there's no logical, objective reason to choose one over the other. It's just a matter of personal preference.

Any kind of argument we come up with to show that one purpose is superior to another will just beg the question.

Suppose your purpose is to rid the world of cancer.

You might say, "By ridding the world of cancer, I will have performed a great feat. I will lengthen the lives of many, many people now and in future generations."

Why should lengthening the lives of many, many people now and in future generations be accepted as a superior goal? Upon what basis?

The basis would be some assumption, perhaps, about the value of human life. But why should human life be considered particularly valuable? In an objective sense, there is no such quality as "value."

Or the basis might be some moral assumption about the superiority of helping others. Why should that moral assumption be accepted? It's just a subjective assumption.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by nator, posted 08-05-2006 9:49 PM nator has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 83 of 99 (338212)
08-06-2006 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by nator
08-06-2006 6:42 AM


Re: Windows to the soul indeed
I call it like I find it, Faith.

I'm not the only one who comes to this conclusion.

It's a meanspirited mischaracterization no matter who says it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by nator, posted 08-06-2006 6:42 AM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by nator, posted 08-06-2006 10:46 AM Faith has responded

    
nator
Member (Idle past 2057 days)
Posts: 12961
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 84 of 99 (338217)
08-06-2006 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Faith
08-06-2006 10:25 AM


Re: Windows to the soul indeed
quote:
It's a meanspirited mischaracterization no matter who says it.

It's not meanspitited.

It's an honest impression of iano's feelings about humanity and himself.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Faith, posted 08-06-2006 10:25 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Faith, posted 08-06-2006 10:52 AM nator has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 85 of 99 (338219)
08-06-2006 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by nator
08-06-2006 10:46 AM


Re: Windows to the soul indeed
Well then you are no judge of character.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by nator, posted 08-06-2006 10:46 AM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by nator, posted 08-06-2006 4:44 PM Faith has responded

    
nator
Member (Idle past 2057 days)
Posts: 12961
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 86 of 99 (338282)
08-06-2006 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Faith
08-06-2006 10:52 AM


Re: Windows to the soul indeed
quote:
Well then you are no judge of character.

Possibly, but then there are several people here who are terrible judges of character, because we each seem to have come to a similar conclusion.

Or, you could be ignoring or filtering out what is rather obvious to many others here.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Faith, posted 08-06-2006 10:52 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Faith, posted 08-06-2006 8:15 PM nator has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 87 of 99 (338308)
08-06-2006 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by nator
08-06-2006 4:44 PM


Re: Windows to the soul indeed
You are mistaking philosophical and Biblical positions for personal character.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by nator, posted 08-06-2006 4:44 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by iano, posted 08-06-2006 10:06 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 89 by nator, posted 08-07-2006 1:07 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
iano
Member (Idle past 597 days)
Posts: 6164
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 88 of 99 (338313)
08-06-2006 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Faith
08-06-2006 8:15 PM


Re: Windows to the soul indeed
Am off to bed sis. You got mail. Night.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Faith, posted 08-06-2006 8:15 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2057 days)
Posts: 12961
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 89 of 99 (338325)
08-07-2006 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Faith
08-06-2006 8:15 PM


Re: Windows to the soul indeed
quote:
You are mistaking philosophical and Biblical positions for personal character.

Now you are simply equivocating over semantics.

...as if either one of you, in a different context, would separate your "personal character" and "philosophical position".

You go right ahead and believe what you like about ian's general attitude regarding himself and humanity, and I will do the same.

I take his words at face value. Maybe you should as well.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Faith, posted 08-06-2006 8:15 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
iano
Member (Idle past 597 days)
Posts: 6164
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 90 of 99 (338390)
08-07-2006 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by nator
08-05-2006 9:56 PM


Re: Windows to the soul indeed
Scrafs take on ianos view of himself writes:

self-loathing... fundamentally deficient

John.14.9 springs to mind: Iano said to her “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Schraf?

Althought I could see why you could be somewhat confused. Sure, this sinful flesh (sinful mind operating through the vehicle of the body) IS a thorn in my side. Can't wait to be shot of it. Won't be long now (in a relative sense)

How I view myself is irrelevant however. I am more concerned with how he views me (innocent and beloved as it happens - hard and all as it is for you to believe that). You know how kids are...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by nator, posted 08-05-2006 9:56 PM nator has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Heathen, posted 08-07-2006 6:43 PM iano has not yet responded

  
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