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Author Topic:   basic reading of genesis 1:1
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 3 of 312 (410276)
07-14-2007 4:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by arachnophilia
07-13-2007 3:00 AM


I started to do a word-by word analysis of Gen 1 a few months ago, so I'll point out a few things that I found.
"In the beginning" is missing the article. As you (and Rashi and JPS) note, this would normally imply a construct, "In the beginning of ...". But there are rare cases where this form is used and it is NOT a construct.
The second word, "created" is pointed as a Qal perfect verbal form. It is NOT pointed as the participle "creating" as Rashi translates it (and as it should be if the first word is in construct). But there are some rare cases where a verbal form is used as a participle.
The third word is the subject, Elohim.
So in the first three words we have some awkward grammar. It could be "In the beginning of God's creating of ..." (Rashi, JPS, Arach) or it could be "In the beginning God created ..." (most other translations). Both are defensible, and both rely on rare grammatical usage.
It seems to me that the Rashi/JPS translation has more problems than the other:
1) If Rashi's translation is correct, the "bara" should be pointed differently OR there should be at least one additional word in the phrase to repair the grammar.
2) Starting with v. 3 (and then God said), the clauses are all in the preterite (waw-consecutive). This preterite sequence needs a referent in the perfect to start it, and "bara" in v. 1 is the only candidate. This means that "bara" must function as a verb, not as a participle.
So I think the traditional translation "In the beginning God created ..." is the best fit to the grammar.
Next points:
1) The preterite construction implies that the verbal action "created" is completed before the next action, which is "and then God said" in v. 3.
2) "heavens and earth" is generally a "merism" for "everything".
So I would translate it:
"In the beginning God created everything." (and this is finished before v. 3 where He says "let there be light").
How can this be? V. 2 seems to be a circumstantial explanatory clause, describing what things were like after the initial creation. Everything was created, but was "waste and empty", i.e. it was unfinished. The rest of the account from v. 3 onward seems to be a "finishing" of the creation, all described from a reference frame on earth.
Edited by kbertsche, : typo

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kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 7 of 312 (410421)
07-15-2007 2:16 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by arachnophilia
07-15-2007 12:19 AM


Preterite (waw-consecutive)
the vav-consecutive, from what i understand, actually functions very simply as a marker for "casual voice" in the verbs. translating literally, you end with "and" at the beginning of every sentance in the bible.
frankly, the fact that bara LACKS the vav in front indicates that it is an abnormal verb.
No, this follows the normal grammar of the preterite (waw-consecutive). [Note: the preterite (waw-consecutive) is the usual form for narrative. It implies a consecutive sequence of events.]
The grammar of the waw-consecutive construction works as follows:
The first verb in the narrative is in the perfect (e.g. "bara" ="created" in 1:1)
The subsequent verbs in the narrative have an IMperfect form, with a "waw" prepended to the verb. But the verb is actually translated as a perfect, with "and then" prepended to it. (e.g. "wa yo'mer" = "and then said" in 1:3)
Since "and then God said" in v. 3 follows this construction (waw + imperfect), it must refer back to a perfect form earlier in the account which has no waw. There are three possibilities for which verb this is:
1) the "bara" in 1:1, which means that "created" functions as a perfect verb, not a participle, and the translation must be "In the beginning God created".
2) possibly the "hayeta" in v. 2, which would have to be translated "became". This means that v. 2 is a main clause, not a circumstantial clause. Vv 1-2 would then be translated either "In the beginning of God's creating of the heavens and the earth, the earth became waste and empty" or "In the beginning God created ... And the earth became waste and empty". But this view has a problem: if the verb is used to mean "became" there should be a "beth" prefix before the predicate "tohu wa bohu", according to my PhD Hebrew friend.
3) possbily an implied verb which is not explicit.
The first seems to me to be the best fit to the text.
Edited by kbertsche, : clarification
Edited by kbertsche, : clarification

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kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 8 of 312 (410428)
07-15-2007 2:41 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by arachnophilia
07-13-2007 3:00 AM


Grammatical function of 1:1
but the point here should be apallingly obvious by now. the first verse serves as introduction to the seven days of creation. the first action of creation, on the first day, is the creation of light, which god calls "day." the darkness the preceded it was "night" and the two make the first day. the other creative actions, described in genesis 1:1's "heaven and earth" (an idiom for "everything"), happen throughout the rest of the chapter. not at some arbitrary "beginning," not instaneously, and not all at the same tim
I don't think it's nearly so obvious or firm. There are three main possibilities for the grammatical function of the first verse, and these affect how the rest of the account is read. Here are some of my study notes on v. 1:
This is a simple sentence with a single clause. The verb “create” is in the Qal stem, perfect tense, third person masculine singular. The subject is God (elohim). The object is the “heavens and the earth”, which is a figure of speech (a merism) for “everything”.
1) The first verse may be a main clause telling us an action which God did prior to the action in v. 3. This is the traditional view, adopted by Luther and Calvin (Waltke, p. 58). This interpretation makes the best sense of the waw-consecutive in v. 3; the first act in the creation narrative is the act of creating the heavens and earth.
2) The first verse also may be a a main clause acting as a summary heading for the entire creation account. This is the view taken by Waltke (p. 58). This gives some tension with the waw-consecutive in v. 3; the first act of the creation narrative is now missing, and must be inferred.
3) Instead of a main clause, the first verse may be a temporal clause modifying verse 3, “In the beginning when God began to create . God said, “Let there be light” . ” with verse 2 as parenthetical. This translation is followed by Rashi, the Jewish Tanakh, and some other translations and study Bibles, and is gramatically valid (Kidner, p. 43). Alternatively, it may be a temporal clause modifying verse 2, “In the beginning when God began to create . the earth was formless . .” This interpretation was followed by Ibn Ezra (Wenham, p. 11). In this interpretation, the account is not the original creation of everything, but is a re-creation from already existent material. This causes some theological difficulties.
Ancient translations all viewed the first verse as an absolute statement, “In the beginning, God created . ” rather than as a temporal clause. Young defends this, and suspects that the temporal clause is chosen by some modern translators because the Babylonian creation account begins this way (Young, p. 20-24).
[It seems to me that the first view above is the best fit. I think it's saying that the first act of creation was to create everything; the second act was to create (unveil?) light.]

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kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 9 of 312 (410519)
07-15-2007 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by arachnophilia
07-15-2007 12:19 AM


First thing created?
the first thing created (and thus the first thing given a name) is light. whether you take 1:2 as meaning the earth exists in a shapeless manner, or that it does not exist at all, it is clearly in the state before god has done much of anything to it.
I agree that light is the first thing given a name, and that this is signfiicant. But is this creation in 1:3 really the first thing created? If so, where did the land and water come from? 1:2 speaks of the waters already existing. On Days 2 and 3, these waters are separated (first from the heavens, then from the land). There is no explicit mention of their being created (or of the land being created). So I see two options:
1) the account is NOT a creation of everything, but starts with pre-existing material (waters, and probably land).
2) the waters, land, etc. were created in 1:1 as an act prior to 1:3, as part of the creation of "everything" in the beginning.

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kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 14 of 312 (412164)
07-24-2007 1:09 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by arachnophilia
07-15-2007 6:14 PM


Re: Grammatical function of 1:1
look at the other examples that Rashi provides:
quote:
Jeremiah 26:1
‘, — ‘-
"in the beginning of the reign of yehoiaqim ben-yosyahu..."
"b'reishit" is clearly an indication of a dependent clause. as for tradition, i believe that rashi antedates calvin and luther by a good 400 years, plus. and spoke hebrew natively.
Can you point to any other biblical examples of this usage with "bara"? I find that "bara" is classed as a "telic" verb, like "die" or "sell", so "only finds meaning at the end of a process". Waltke claims that "bara" only refers to "a completed act of creation" and gives as examples Deut 4:32; Ps 89:12; Is 40:26; and Amos 4:13.
(BTW, how do you edit Hebrew characters in this window? I can copy and paste yours, but can't figure out how to edit them.)

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kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 15 of 312 (412174)
07-24-2007 2:12 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by arachnophilia
07-15-2007 12:19 AM


well, the article isn't really important, either rendering would be absent the "the" in hebrew.
I disagree; the article IS important. If the article were present on "beginning" ("ba-reshit" instead of "bereshit") there would much less debate. In this case, it could NOT be in construct and Rashi's translation would not be a possibility. The missing article means that Rashi's translation is a possibility.
can you provide an example? (Of cases where a form like "bereshit" is used with no article but it is NOT a construct)
Is 46:10 uses exactly the same form "bereshit" as Gen 1:1, with no article:
I foretell the end from the beginning (JPS)
(There are at least half a dozen other examples, but this is about the best.)
past and present tense third-person verbs in hebrew are actually indistinguishable, even in terms of vowels. either rendering is actually acceptable here.
But this is not the issue.
though i'm not sure i agree with the infinitive construction "began to create" that the nJPS uses, as it is not an infinitive in the hebrew
Yes, THIS is the issue. To take it as a construct (a la Rashi) requires translating it "in the beginning of the creating of God", i.e. "in the beginning of God's creating". For this "bara" MUST be read as an infinitive. But as you note, it is not an infinitive form. It is a 3d person singular finite verb form. To read this as an infinitive would be EXTREMELY unusual and unlikely. (But not necessarily impossible; Wenham points out that this occurs in Hos 1:2).

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kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 18 of 312 (412952)
07-27-2007 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by arachnophilia
07-26-2007 3:27 AM


Vowel points?
Re the missing article in "In [the] beginning":
that's not an article, that's a vowel point -- which were added several hundred years after christ, and are not part of the original text. and REALLY easy to screw up, btw.
Yes; when a preposition is prefixed to a noun with article, the article disappears as a character and becomes a vowel point. And I agree that it is very easy to mess up. But as my Hebrew scholar friend claims, the first few verses of the Bible would have been widely memorized and repeated, and it is much less likely that the Jewish community would have lost the vowel points on this verse.

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kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 19 of 312 (412960)
07-27-2007 12:27 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by arachnophilia
07-26-2007 3:27 AM


possessive?
yes. i would like to add, possibly at the expensive of my own case, that a possessive is mysteriously missing. i'm not sure how big of an issue this is, based on the grammar.
The "construct" form shows genitive case (which can show possession), and doesn't need any other markers.
From wikipedia (Hebrew language - Wikipedia):
quote:
Hebrew's genitive case is achieved by placing two nouns next to each other. This is called a noun construct ( [smiut]). The second noun can be viewed as an adjective modifying the first noun.
The first noun in a noun construct must be in its construct form. For most nouns, the construct form is derived fairly easily from the normal (indefinite) form:
...
In addition, the definite article is never placed on the first noun (the one in the construct form).
I noted that for Rashi's translation "bara" MUST be read as an infinitive, though it is not written as one.
well, this is just a quibble -- i would render it "when god began creating..." the infinitive is just an awkward translation into english where it isn't needed. in either language. "creating" works just fine, and is more literal. the nJPS isn't concerned with precision in translating the grammar exactly as it is in the hebrew -- they're more concerned with reflecting the ideas and making it read smoothly in english.
But your translation WOULD need some sort of possessive marker, because it would not follow the noun construct paradigm. A construct requires two or more nouns next to each other, as noted in wikipedia. To be in construct, the word "bara" must act as a noun. It cannot do this while a finite verb; the only way for it to act as a noun is to be an infinitive.
(Note: there may be some terminology and usage differences between biblical and modern Hebrew. I have studied biblical but not modern Hebrew, whereas I suspect that you are more fluent in modern Hebrew.)

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kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 52 of 312 (606453)
02-25-2011 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by ICANT
02-25-2011 2:33 AM


Re: singular construct vs. "irregular plural"
ICANT writes:
Hebrew noun construct chain.
When two (or more) nouns appear together (either by juxtaposition or by means of a maqqef), they are said to be in a "construct relation" to one another. The first noun of the pair is said to be in "construct" relationship with the following noun, which is said to be in the absolute.
arachnophilia writes:
because that would be nonsense.
That was a miss copy and paste.
But you did not address the fact it was in the construct because it was followed by a noun. It was not in the construct because of the suffix.
God Bless,
Arach and I discussed this in detail a few years ago in this same thread.
As written in the MT, without changing the vowel pointing, the first word can be strictly translated as either:
1) an absolute, "In a beginning", or "In beginning";
2) a construct, "In the beginning of".
Arach follows Rashi and translates it as a construct, but this has other problems as we have discussed above.
I follow most Christian Hebrew scholars and translate it as an absolute, changing it to "In the beginning." This has different problems.
For a good, detailed discussion of the textual issues, see the Word Biblical Commentary by Wenham.

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kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 64 of 312 (606549)
02-26-2011 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by ICANT
02-25-2011 7:25 PM


Re: singular construct vs. "irregular plural"
arachnophilia writes:
kbertsche writes:
As written in the MT, without changing the vowel pointing, the first word can be strictly translated as either:
1) an absolute, "In a beginning", or "In beginning";
2) a construct, "In the beginning of".
Arach follows Rashi and translates it as a construct, but this has other problems as we have discussed above.
I follow most Christian Hebrew scholars and translate it as an absolute, changing it to "In the beginning." This has different problems.
what about if you do change the vowel pointing? specifically, the vowels on ברא?
It looks to me like you've already answered this question in Message 54. The vowels on "bara" would have to be changed to make it an infinitive construct. Then it would agree with Rashi's reading.
ICANT writes:
Hi kbertsche,
I know you guys discussed this as I have read the entire thread except the mess we got when we could no longer copy and past Hebrew text and it gave the symbols that now appear under the new software.
kbertsche writes:
2) a construct, "In the beginning of".
I will ask you the same question I have been asking arachnophilia.
How do you get a construct in Genesis 1:1?
A noun construct is when two nouns are side by side. The first noun is in the construct and the second is in the absolute.
Yes, but the construct form is generally just a shortened form of the absolute, generally only with changes in vowel pointing, not in consonants. And sometimes the absolute is so short that the two forms are identical. So it's often not easy to distinguish.
ICANT writes:
In the Hebrew text the words are in this order:
The first word is בהראשית a feminine plural noun with a sufix to the root word creating a new word.
While it looks like a plural form, BDB does not describe it as a plural, but a singular. And instead of "suffix," I think you mean "prefix" ("in").
And note that the definite article is missing. The MT (Masoretic Text) says "in a beginning" or "in beginning." But note that this is exactly how one would shorten "in the beginning" to its construct form; if the next word were a noun, the natural way to read this would be "in the beginning of."
ICANT writes:
The second word is ברא a root word verb in the Qal perfect 3ps. Biblical Hebrew does not have tenses. It has perfect which is completed action and imperfect which is ongoing action.
Yes, as voweled in the MT (Masoretic Text), the second word is a finite verb, a Qal perfect 3rd person singular ("he created").
Rashi's translation requires changing the vowels to make it an infinitive construct, "the creating of."
ICANT writes:
There can be no construct noun in that sentence as no nouns are side by side.
Correct, as written in the MT (Masoretic Text).
ICANT writes:
There is no prefix on the verb to change it from perfect to imperfect which is required for the construct.
I don't follow. The verb "bara" would have to be changed to a noun for a construct chain; this does not require a prefix, only different vowels.
ICANT writes:
So how would you support the construct in Genesis 1:1?
You've got to change the voweling on "bara", turning it into an infinitive construct.
ICANT writes:
There are those who want to place the first noun in the text in construct to the feminine noun in verse three translated light. Rashi being one of them.
In Biblical Hebrew for a noun to be in construct it must have a noun next to it in the absolute, and it is in construct to that noun.
I don't think this is what Rashi proposed. Rather, he turned "bara" into an infinitive construct. Then "in the beginning" is in construct with "creating" which is in construct with "God" which is absolute. The first three words then read, "In the beginning of the creating of God," or more smoothly, "in the beginning of God's creating," or more smoothly yet, "When God began to create."
But I agree with your reading of the text, not Rashi's. As I explained up-thread, Rashi's reading not only requires changing the vowel pointing, it also removes the first finite verb from the preterite (waw-consecutive) sequence. This is unusual, but not absolutely ruled out, as Arach showed up-thread. So I would judge Rashi's reading as tenable, but less likely than the more traditional Christian reading.
ABE: When I use "MT" I mean "Masoretic Text." NOT the "Mechanical Translation" which Arach described a few posts up. (The fact that they shorten this "mechanical translation" to MT is horrible. Why didn't they call it a "literal translation" or something else?)
Edited by kbertsche, : clarified MT

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kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 66 of 312 (606555)
02-26-2011 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by arachnophilia
02-25-2011 7:44 PM


Re: singular construct vs. "irregular plural"
arachnophilia writes:
ראשית is found 49 times in the OT. There are 5 times it is not in the construct and Genesis 1:1 is one of those times.
disregarding the one under debate (you can't use an argument as proof of itself), that's 8⅓%.
in any case, please feel to actually present these 5 cases. we can then discuss them. i can find two. there are a half-dozen quirky grammatical uses, of course, such as plurals and possessives constructed from it. but we're looking for the same spelling and place in sentence structure.
With a quick search I find 51 occurrences in 49 verses (2 verses have 2 occurrences). I find 7 in the absolute:
Lev 2:12; Ps 105:36; Neh 12:44; "first fruits"
Deut 33:12; "first part"
Is 46:10; Prov 4:7; "beginning"
Job 40:19; "first"
But are any of these the same sentence structure as Gen 1:1? Not really, if you want to be strict.
arachnophilia writes:
quote:
it's not that construct states are indicated by suffixes. rather, it is that this particular suffix, on this particularly word, is almost always used in constructs, as the word generally means "first of" something.
-- me, in Message 49
just to be safe, i have restated that position again, in this message.
I think it's just that when we use the word "beginning" or "first" we are generally talking about the beginning "of" something. It's rare that we talk of "beginning" or "first" in the abstract.

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kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 68 of 312 (606588)
02-26-2011 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by arachnophilia
02-26-2011 1:31 PM


Re: vowels and such
arachnophilia writes:
kbertsche writes:
And note that the definite article is missing. The MT (Masoretic Text) says "in a beginning" or "in beginning." But note that this is exactly how one would shorten "in the beginning" to its construct form; if the next word were a noun, the natural way to read this would be "in the beginning of."
yes. but definite articles go missing when you add a ב prefix anyways. it's generally accounted for in the vowels, however.
Sorry; I wasn't clear. Yes, the consonant he disappears, but it is reflected in the vowel.
"In THE beginning." The patah vowel which was under the he remains under the bet.
But the MT has a shewa under the bet. This could either reflect the absence of the article ("in a beginning"), or the article in a shortened "construct" form ("in the beginning of").

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kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 70 of 312 (606608)
02-26-2011 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by arachnophilia
02-26-2011 2:42 PM


Re: singular construct vs. "irregular plural"
arachnophilia writes:
kbertsche writes:
With a quick search I find 51 occurrences in 49 verses (2 verses have 2 occurrences). I find 7 in the absolute:
that's more or less what i found, yes. some of those are kind of questionable, too.
  • in leviticus 2:12, קָרְבַּן רֵאשִׁית might well be seen as a construct. it just takes the role of the absolute.
I agree that "korban" is in the construct here. But "reshit" ("beginning") is in the absolute, not the construct.
arachnophilia writes:
  • in psalm 105:36, לְכָל has been injected into the construct, רֵאשִׁית, לְכָל-אוֹנָם so that it reads "the first of all their strength"
No, I don't think this is technically a construct, even though it would translate the same. Here the text has an explicit preposition "li" ("to, from, of"). This violates the construct form, but uses an explicit prepositional phrase to convey the same idea. Many of the Psalms have the same construction in their superscripts (e.g. "a Psalm of David").
arachnophilia writes:
  • in isaiah 40:10, מֵרֵאשִׁית אַחֲרִית is kind of a strange pair of nouns. could it be seen as a construct? it's clearly not "the beginning of" something, i agree. rather, it's "the end from the beginning" in reverse order.
I don't think this can be seen as a construct. Literally it says, "The one declaring, from the beginning, the end" or "The one declaring the end from the beginning." "End" is the direct object of the verbal action "declaring", not the absolute of a construct, which would mean "beginning of the end."
arachnophilia writes:
  • proverbs 4:7 shouldn't be on the list, as רֵאשִׁית חָכְמָה "the beginning of wisdom" is a rather simple construct.
I agree with you; the parsing guide in my Bible software was wrong here.
arachnophilia writes:
  • nor should job 40:19, as רֵאשִׁית דַּרְכֵי-אֵל is a three word simple construct too. but you probably meant job 8:7, and simply copied the wrong entry from the concordance, as רֵאשִׁיתְךָ is not in a construct, and just reads "your beginning". of course, it probably says this as the alternative, ראשך would mean "your head".
No, this was another goof in my parsing guide. You are correct that Job 40:19 is a construct form. But I would read Job 8:7 as a construct also, with the prepositional suffix acting as the absolute: i.e. "in the beginning of you" or "in your beginning."
arachnophilia writes:
job 8:7, nehemiah 12:44, and deuteronomy 33:21 (also probably a typo on your part) are the only real examples i can find.
Yes, Deut 33:21 is the correct reference. (Note that this is grammatically the same as Ps 105:36.)
I think we should omit Job 8:7 but include Lev 2:12; Ps 105:36; and Is 46:10, for the reasons given above.
But your point is well taken; this is only 5 occurrences out of 51. "Beginning" ("reshit") is more often used in construct than in absolute.
Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.
Edited by kbertsche, : typo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by arachnophilia, posted 02-26-2011 2:42 PM arachnophilia has replied

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 Message 71 by arachnophilia, posted 02-27-2011 2:03 PM kbertsche has seen this message but not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 74 of 312 (606996)
03-01-2011 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by ICANT
02-28-2011 8:42 PM


Re: singular construct vs. "irregular plural"
ICANT writes:
Hi kbertsche,
kbertsche writes:
Yes, but the construct form is generally just a shortened form of the absolute, generally only with changes in vowel pointing, not in consonants. And sometimes the absolute is so short that the two forms are identical. So it's often not easy to distinguish.
Do you have an example of such construct form?
Yes; the site Hebrew4Christians has details and examples. As they show, the word "king" ("melek") already has short vowels ("seghols") in the absolute and can't be shortened further, so the construct form with vowels is completely identical to the absolute.
ICANT writes:
בראשית which would be translated in the beginning. Which would be the smoothest reading in English.
But the first vowel in the MT isn't quite right for this. I have explained this earlier and Arach has supported it with a quote. I would again recommend the Word Biblical Commentary, which has an excellent extended discussion of the grammatical issues in Gen 1:1.
ICANT writes:
kbertsche writes:
Rashi's translation requires changing the vowels to make it an infinitive construct, "the creating of."
But the original was written without vowels.
Yes, but there was also an oral tradition which included the vowels. The reason the Masoretes added the written vowels is that Hebrew was starting to lose its oral tradition.
ICANT writes:
So there would have to be another way which there is if the author had intended Rashi's translation to be correct.
Not necessarily. Often the correct reading can only be determined from context.
ICANT writes:
The Hebrew word ברא is in the third person singular perfect form, which is the absolute. In Biblical Hebrew to change it to the infinitive construct requires a prefix the ב, ל, כ, serves that purpose. The infinitive construct can be inflected with pronominal endings to indicate its subject or object.
It is true that a prefix is often added to infinitives. But this is simply because we often use infiinitives in the construction such as "to do x." The prefix it is technically not part of the infinitive. Infinitives can be used without the prefix.
ICANT writes:
There is no way a noun can be in the construct without a noun following it.
True.
ICANT writes:
The second word the verb bara' could have been converted by the author into a noun puting the first word in the construct but was not.
The second word the verb bara' could have been put in the infinitive construct by the author adding one of the following ב, ל, כ, but was not.
Again, it does not need a prefix to be an infinitive. Especially to be an infinitive construct, which means that the vowels are shortened and the word pronounced more quickly.
This grammatical issue is very easy to illustrate and resolve. Just take a look at Gen 5:1. Here we see a noun with the prepositional prefix "bi" ("in"), followed by a form of the verb "bara," followed by "Elohim", just as in Gen 1:1. But here the voweling in the MT has "bara" as an infinitive construct ("bero"). And note that this infinitive construct has no prepositional prefix. The text transliterates as "beyom bero' 'Elohim," which literally means "in the day of the creating of God," or more smoothly, "in the day that God created." This is exactly the way that Rashi wants to read Gen 1:1. His reading of Gen 1:1 requires no change to the consonants, but it does require a change to the MT vowels.
Again, just to be clear, I disagree with Rashi's reading for the reasons I've already given earlier (and which are outlined in more detail in Word Biblical Commentary). But Rashi's reading is still tenable if one changes the vowels of the MT.
Edited by kbertsche, : clarification

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 Message 72 by ICANT, posted 02-28-2011 8:42 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by ICANT, posted 03-01-2011 3:01 PM kbertsche has replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 77 of 312 (607177)
03-02-2011 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by ICANT
03-01-2011 3:01 PM


Re: singular construct vs. "irregular plural"
ICANT writes:
Hi kbertsche,
dbertsche writes:
Yes; the site Hebrew4Christians has details and examples. As they show, "king" ("melek") already has short vowels ("seghols") in the absolute and can't be shortened further, so the construct form is identical to the absolute.
Is king in the construct because of the vowels?
OR
Is it in the construct because it is followed by a noun?
When two nouns are side by side the first is in the construct.
It is simple to determine which noun is in the construct and no vowels are necessary to determine which is which.
No, it's NOT this simple and mechanical at all.
Normal Hebrew word order is VERB-SUBJECT-OBJECT. Subject and object are usually nouns. Hence, two nouns are frequently side-by-side which are not in construct, but are subject-object.
ICANT writes:
The Hebrew text did not have vowels until 1000 years ago. It existed for about 2500 years without vowels.
The text had no vowels, but the language had vowels. It can't be spoken without vowel sounds. The vowels were propagated through oral tradition.
ICANT writes:
kbertsche writes:
But the first vowel in the MT isn't quite right for this.
So if you had been a translator when the LXX was done how would you have translated it? They had no MT vowels.
Those translators were a lot closer to the original than we are and they translated it "In the beginning God made the Heaven and the Earth".
I would have translated it pretty much the same way that they did. I think it's the best fit, all things being considered.
ICANT writes:
kbertsche writes:
It is true that a prefix is often added to infinitives. But this is simply because we often use infiinitives in the construction such as "to do x." The prefix it is technically not part of the infinitive. Infinitives can be used without the prefix.
When the infinitive is used without the prefix it remains in the absolute. When the prefix is used it is in the construct.
No, I disagree.
ICANT writes:
kbertsche writes:
Again, it does not need a prefix to be an infinitive. Especially to be an infinitive construct, which means that the vowels are shortened and the word pronounced more quickly.
No it does not need a prefix to be an infinitive absolute. But it needs a prefix to be an infinitive construct.
I still disagree.
ICANT writes:
kbertsche writes:
This grammatical issue is very easy to resolve. Just take a look at Gen 5:1. Here we see the verb "bara" followed by "Elohim", just as in Gen 1:1. But here the voweling in the MT has "bara" as an infinitive construct ("bero"). And note that this infinitive construct has no prepositional prefix.
The author that wrote Genesis 5:1 had the means to make bara an infinitive construct and did not do so.
No, if he would have added a preposition, as you suggest, he would have changed the sentence and messed up the construct chain. What we have in Gen 5:1 is a construct chain, with the infinitive construct in the middle of the chain (i.e. it is not the first construct in the chain; it follows a preceding noun in construct). Adding a preposition would break the chain and change the meaning.
I just did a search for an infinitive construct (with or without a prepositional prefix) in the middle of a construct chain. Here are all that I find in Genesis. You can see that none have prepositional prefixes. Do you agree that any of these are infinitive constructs?
Gen 2:4 "beyom 'asot YHWH" = "in the day of the making of God" = "when God made" (here "asah" changes form)
Gen 2:17 "beyom akhalekha" = "in the day of the eating of you" = "when you eat"
Gen 3:5 "beyom akhalekhem" = "in the day of the eating of you (pl)" = "when you (pl) eat"
Gen 5:1 (already discussed)
Gen 5:2 "beyom hibbare'am" = "in the day of the being created of them" = "when they were created" ("bara" here is in the "nifil" stem, denoting passive)
Gen 13:10 "lifenei shachet YHWH" = "to the face of the destroying of God" = "before God destroyed" (infin construct is in "piel", denoting intensive)
Gen 21:8 "beyom higgamel 'et-yitzchaq" = "in the day of the weaning of Isaac" = "when Isaac was weaned" ("bara" here is in the "nifil" stem, denoting passive)
Gen 29:7 "'et he'asef hamiqneh" = "the time of the gathering of the cattle" = "the time for the cattle to be gathered" (infin construct is in "nifil", denoting passive)
Gen 30:41 "bekhol-yachem hatzo'n" = "in all of the mating of the flock" = "whenever the flock was mating" (infin construct is in "piel", denoting intensive)
Gen 36:31 "lifenei melakh-melekh" = "to face of reigning of a king" = "before any king reigned"
Gen 38:27 "be'et lidta" = "in the time of the bearing of her" = "at the time that she bore"
Gen 40:20 "yom hulledet 'et-par'o" = "the day of the causing to be born of Pharaoh" = "Pharaoh's birthday" (infin construct is in "hofal", denoting passive-causative)
Again, none of these occurrences put prepositional prefixes on infinitive constructs when they are in the middle of a construct chain. I couldn't find any examples which did so. Can you find any?
ICANT writes:
So the Masoretes come along and add vowel points that puts it in the infinitive construct.
Do I take what the author wrote or the modified text of the Masoretes?
I will stick with the original.
But the Masoretes didn't invent the vowel sounds. they invented a way of writing the vowel sounds that had been carried along for centuries by oral tradition. Yes, some of the vowel sounds could have been corrupted over the centuries. But this doesn't mean that we should just ignore the MT vowels completely!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by ICANT, posted 03-01-2011 3:01 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by ICANT, posted 03-02-2011 1:53 PM kbertsche has replied
 Message 89 by ICANT, posted 03-05-2011 11:34 AM kbertsche has replied

  
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