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Author Topic:   Morality! Thorn in Darwin's side or not?
RAZD
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Posts: 18658
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 421 of 438 (744188)
12-08-2014 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 420 by ProtoTypical
12-08-2014 5:00 PM


So, armed with an objectively established goal, as individuals we can promote a rational morality.

and make a declaration?

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all people are endowed with certain Basic Human Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, Equality, Justice, and the pursuit of Happiness, -- That to secure and protect these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their powers from the consent and willing participation of the governed, -- And that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect, secure and protect their Rights.

Something like that?

or http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/?

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : ..


we are limited in our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 420 by ProtoTypical, posted 12-08-2014 5:00 PM ProtoTypical has responded

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ProtoTypical
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Posts: 1739
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


(1)
Message 422 of 438 (744195)
12-08-2014 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 421 by RAZD
12-08-2014 5:17 PM


Yes, very much like that.
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ringo
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Posts: 13194
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 423 of 438 (744245)
12-09-2014 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 420 by ProtoTypical
12-08-2014 5:00 PM


ProtoTypical writes:

Our moral behaviour is born out of the eons long evolutionary process that selected those behaviours that helped us to survive as a species. I am saying that these selections can be viewed as objectively good.


I suppose our main point of disagreement is the definition of the word "objective". I tend to think of objectivity as dealing with an object - i.e. something that has definite qualities and/or quantities. We can objectively measure a two-by-four without knowing what it is; we're only interested in the qualities and/or quantities of the object itself.

What you're describing seems more like a collective subjectivity, a consensus of opinion based on highly subjective criteria rather than on a real-world object. We can look back on results that suited us but what's good for us isn't necessarily "good".

ProtoTypical writes:

I was also making the point that some species are more likely to survive by virtue of their ability to survive across a range of environments and that this should put them higher up on a scale of fitness.


Some species, sure. But other species survive by being more specialized. Shouldn't that put them on a "higher scale of fitness" too?
This message is a reply to:
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ProtoTypical
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Posts: 1739
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 424 of 438 (744356)
12-10-2014 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 423 by ringo
12-09-2014 10:50 AM


We can look back on results that suited us but what's good for us isn't necessarily "good".

The concept of good requires a subject and a frame of reference. The only way that your claim can be true is if you change the frame of reference after assessing what is good for us and before assessing if it is good in some other way.

Humans as a species become the object of assessment.

Some species, sure. But other species survive by being more specialized. Shouldn't that put them on a "higher scale of fitness" too?

Again it is the reference frame. In 1850 we might have said that the passenger pigeon was equally fit as the shark, crocodile or cockroach. Today we see that this was not the case. Isn't this an objective assessment?


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ringo
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Posts: 13194
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 425 of 438 (744372)
12-10-2014 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 424 by ProtoTypical
12-10-2014 8:09 AM


ProtoTypical writes:

The concept of good requires a subject and a frame of reference.


Exactly. It's subjective.

ProtoTypical writes:

Humans as a species become the object of assessment.


And different subjects have different standards for that assessment.

Since when does anybody think in terms of what's good for "humans as a species" anyway?

ProtoTypical writes:

In 1850 we might have said that the passenger pigeon was equally fit as the shark, crocodile or cockroach. Today we see that this was not the case. Isn't this an objective assessment?


No. Accidentally arriving at a conclusion that seems correct in retrospect does not indicate objectivity.
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AZPaul3
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Posts: 3428
From: Phoenix
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Message 426 of 438 (744400)
12-10-2014 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 425 by ringo
12-10-2014 11:04 AM


Since when does anybody think in terms of what's good for "humans as a species" anyway?

I know some who think that what's good for humanity as a species is to get rid of 2/3 of them.


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Colbard
Member (Idle past 833 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 427 of 438 (744447)
12-11-2014 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 417 by jar
12-08-2014 9:50 AM


Re: Read the Bible
Jar writes:

You don't know anything about the Bible or Christianity or Science or Honesty or Morality or evidence or debate or discussion for starters.

If you did then you would know that the Bible says mankind has the same capability to know right and wrong as God does thanks to the great gift given in Genesis 2&3 fable.

Classic freemason teaching


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Colbard
Member (Idle past 833 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 428 of 438 (744449)
12-11-2014 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 419 by ringo
12-08-2014 12:14 PM


Ringo writes:

Experience. The human race is self-educated in terms of morality. If morality was "imparted" by some omniscient, omnipotent, omnivorous alien overlord, it ought to work better than it does.

Keep thinking.

Power does not grant a love response.


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jar
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Posts: 29032
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 429 of 438 (744451)
12-11-2014 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 427 by Colbard
12-11-2014 9:12 AM


Re: Read the Bible
Colbard writes:

Jar writes:

You don't know anything about the Bible or Christianity or Science or Honesty or Morality or evidence or debate or discussion for starters.

If you did then you would know that the Bible says mankind has the same capability to know right and wrong as God does thanks to the great gift given in Genesis 2&3 fable.

Classic freemason teaching

HUH?

You really have not read the Bible have you?

Genesis 3 writes:

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

Freemason teaching or simply pointing out what the Bible actually says?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Theodoric
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Posts: 5765
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 430 of 438 (744458)
12-11-2014 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 427 by Colbard
12-11-2014 9:12 AM


Re: Read the Bible
Do you know anything about Freemasonry?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


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ringo
Member
Posts: 13194
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 431 of 438 (744461)
12-11-2014 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 428 by Colbard
12-11-2014 9:15 AM


Colbard writes:

ringo writes:

Experience. The human race is self-educated in terms of morality. If morality was "imparted" by some omniscient, omnipotent, omnivorous alien overlord, it ought to work better than it does.


Keep thinking.

Power does not grant a love response.


How is that a response to what I said? Please ty to make a clear point.
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 18658
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 432 of 438 (744526)
12-11-2014 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 431 by ringo
12-11-2014 11:02 AM


The human race is self-educated in terms of morality. If morality was "imparted" by some omniscient, omnipotent, omnivorous alien overlord, it ought to work better than it does.

Power does not grant a love response.

How is that a response to what I said? Please ty to make a clear point.

Because we all live in a yellow submarine.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 431 by ringo, posted 12-11-2014 11:02 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Zatara
Junior Member (Idle past 689 days)
Posts: 4
From: Richland
Joined: 05-07-2015


Message 433 of 438 (757321)
05-07-2015 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 429 by jar
12-11-2014 9:24 AM


Re: Read the Bible
Jar writes:
"You don't know anything about the Bible or Christianity or Science or Honesty or Morality or evidence or debate or discussion for starters.

If you did then you would know that the Bible says mankind has the same capability to know right and wrong as God does ....
....
You really have not read the Bible have you?"

What difference does it make whether someone read the Bible? I've read it, all of it, but that does not mean I believe any of it or that it comes from a god. Morality is easily explained by evolution. The tribes that cooperated and treated each other fairly survived. They had a distinct advantage over tribes that did not work together and did not treat one another fairly. Even animals have a sense of fairness and reciprocity. This has been clearly demonstrated by many studies and featured in a TED talk by Frans de Waal. http://www.ted.com/...s/frans_de_waal_do_animals_have_morals


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jar
Member
Posts: 29032
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 434 of 438 (757383)
05-08-2015 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 433 by Zatara
05-07-2015 9:42 AM


Re: Read the Bible
What difference does it make whether someone read the Bible? I've read it, all of it, but that does not mean I believe any of it or that it comes from a god. Morality is easily explained by evolution. The tribes that cooperated and treated each other fairly survived. They had a distinct advantage over tribes that did not work together and did not treat one another fairly. Even animals have a sense of fairness and reciprocity. This has been clearly demonstrated by many studies and featured in a TED talk by Frans de Waal.

Your a new kid here so I will cut you a ton of slack but your post has absolutely no relevance to what I posted.

If you read more of what I post here at EvC you will learn I have only minor points of contention with anything in your post above.

My point was that those who think the Bible is much of a moral guideline or that God determines morality simply have not read the Bible. The Bible is filled with the question of what morality is, the God character in the Bible constantly struggles with trying to figure out what is moral and very often behaves in what we can only describe as an immoral manner if not utterly depraved. Also, as the part you quoted points out, the Bible itself says that man has the exact same ability to determine right from wrong as God, and we too constantly struggle with determining what is moral or immoral.

I never tell anyone they should believe in God but personally, I do. But that is me. However I do think it is important to point out what the Bible (or Veda or Koran or Tanach or Eight Fold Path or writing of Confucius or Mencius or ...) actually do say particularly when folk resort to using such writings as support for their personal positions.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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1.61803
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Posts: 2687
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 435 of 438 (757384)
05-08-2015 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 434 by jar
05-08-2015 9:32 AM


Re: Read the Bible
And to muddy the waters even further the interpretation and application of what was read; example......all of them folks who take up serpents.

If you get bit it cuz you doing it wrong!


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

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