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Author Topic:   MACROevolution vs MICROevolution - what is it?
Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 335 of 908 (817095)
08-15-2017 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 332 by Faith
08-15-2017 12:45 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
Faith writes:
The original beetle probably had no junk DNA for starters and many genes for every trait. That would very likely be quite enough to account for that many different species without any mutations at all.
We already went through this with humans, and you had to admit that human genetic diversity could not be produced through this mechanism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 12:45 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 338 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 1:22 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 341 of 908 (817122)
08-15-2017 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 338 by Faith
08-15-2017 1:22 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
Faith writes:
Not that I recall. Perhaps you could be more specific?
You claimed that there could only be 2 alleles for any human gene. We showed you genes that have thousands of alleles (e.g. HLA genes) which can only be the product of mutation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 338 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 1:22 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 343 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 1:43 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 342 of 908 (817123)
08-15-2017 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 340 by Faith
08-15-2017 1:35 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
Faith writes:
And when you do you must lose the genetic material for other phenotypes, because that's what selection does.
Adding new genetic material is what mutation does.
The addition of mutations doesn't do anything in itself but change an allele here and there in the greater population. It has to be selected to form a new species, and selection requires the loss of the phenotype the mutation displaces.
The mutation has to be there in order to be selected for.
The small differences could be selected, say by a small group of individuals being separated from the parent population, reproductively isolated and developing a new species. Sure that could happen. But the way the new species is developed is through selection.
Yes, the selection of new mutations which increased genetic diversity. It is just like adding more fuel to the gas tank of a car so that it keeps going down the road.
If such a selection, even a random selection, doesn't occur, you will continue to have the essential stasis of the parent population, with scattered phenotypic differences, or drift here and there and so on. But wherever you are getting a group identity of new phenotypes you are losing the other phenotypes. This pattern always has to occur, even in drift which is also a form of selection.
Just as you lose gas from a gas tank as you go down the road, but that tank is replenished by adding gas to the gas tank. This is how you are able to travel farther than one tank will allow.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 1:35 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 344 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 1:45 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 358 of 908 (817142)
08-15-2017 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 356 by Faith
08-15-2017 2:35 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
Faith writes:
Scattered mutations don't change a species, it takes selection to do that.
Yes, selection of new mutations that increase genetic diversity.
But in the case of breeding, breeders don't want anything to change their breed even a mutation.
Every offspring they produce has mutations their parents didn't have.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 2:35 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 360 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 2:57 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 359 of 908 (817143)
08-15-2017 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 344 by Faith
08-15-2017 1:45 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
Faith writes:
Adding gas doesn't destroy what the engine is doing, but adding mutations would destroy existing species.
In our analogy, you are saying that driving another foot destroys the purpose of driving to the spot you were previously at.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 344 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 1:45 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 363 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 2:59 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 361 of 908 (817145)
08-15-2017 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 343 by Faith
08-15-2017 1:43 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
Faith writes:
Doesn't affect what I said about beetles.
It does. The millions of different alleles for homologous genes seen among beetle populations were produced by mutations.
And the additional alleles do not improve the immune system at all, they simply scatter its protections among individuals, making it more like Russian Roulette than a functionoing immune system.
Yet more stuff you are making up.
The genes of the immune system are all co-dominant which would ensure that all individuals had the same protections if it remained intact, but mutations destroy that intactness and scatter its protections.
And here you said that selection reduces genetic diversity. You have just pointed to an example that destroys your argument.
The genes of the immune system are all co-dominant which would ensure that all individuals had the same protections if it remained intact, but mutations destroy that intactness and scatter its protections.
Each person only has 2 alleles out of the thousands of alleles for some HLA genes.
The concession had to do with whether that many different mutations could have occurred since Creation given the current rate of mutations. They couldn't have.
Then how do we have thousands of alleles for these genes?

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 Message 343 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 1:43 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 362 of 908 (817146)
08-15-2017 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 360 by Faith
08-15-2017 2:57 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
Faith writes:
Selection which must decrease that very genetic diversity.
So just like the gas tank of a car, the engine removes gas while the gas pump adds gas. This is why evolution never stops.

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 Message 360 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 2:57 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 364 of 908 (817148)
08-15-2017 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 349 by Faith
08-15-2017 2:14 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
Faith writes:
Nature doesn't "care" but the fact is that species in the wild do have established identities that do persist, . . .
There are no such species in nature as the peppered moth and pocket mouse demonstrate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 2:14 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 367 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 3:05 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 366 of 908 (817150)
08-15-2017 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 363 by Faith
08-15-2017 2:59 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
Faith writes:
What I'm saying is that species in nature appear to be pretty stable, not subject to mutations which keep changing their appearance.
What you are saying is contradicted by observed facts. Species do change through time due to mutations. The peppered moth and the pocket mouse are two examples. We can even look at transitional hominids that change through time. You are simply living in a fantasy world.

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 Message 363 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 2:59 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 368 of 908 (817152)
08-15-2017 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 367 by Faith
08-15-2017 3:05 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
Faith writes:
Selection can change a species, but as a matter of fact there are an awful lot of species that simply persist without change.
Name one. I am unaware of any fossil species from the Cambrian that is completely unchanged since the Cambrian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 3:05 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 370 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 3:32 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 376 of 908 (817163)
08-15-2017 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 370 by Faith
08-15-2017 3:32 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
Faith writes:
Since the fossil record is not a record of change from time period to time period as is claimed by OE and ToE theory, but a record of what lived before the Flood, you have no point.
Then how did you determine that species never change?
I'd expect small changes in any population even over a few hundred years, so I'm talking about relative stability of a population in which the changes are hardly noticeable in any case.
We are talking about evolution, which occurs over millions of years.
I'd suggest the wildebeests as a stable unchanging population, grizzly bears, polar bears, panda bears, any local population of raccoons, bobcats, lions, etc etc etc.
Then show us how not a single mutation has changed one individual in those species. Until you do so, you are just blowing steam.
You get change when you get selection; otherwise you get stability even with all your mutations. Even the cheetah is stable, how long has it persisted?
We already demonstrated that mutations cause change. You are just wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 370 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 3:32 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 377 of 908 (817164)
08-15-2017 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 374 by Faith
08-15-2017 3:40 PM


Re: the usual silly wrong linear analogy
Faith writes:
I've been consistently answering all the bogus "problems" you all keep bringing up.
You have been answering the questions with made up fantasies which we have demonstrated are made up fantasies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 374 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 3:40 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 407 of 908 (817271)
08-16-2017 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 380 by CRR
08-15-2017 10:29 PM


Re: This is NOT macroevolution, the product of non-stop microevolution
CRR writes:
Now when the isolated populations merge we have two different alleles. Note that no new genes have been created, just two corrupted versions of the original. Hence this can be regarded as microevolution.
Corrupted? Is the human genome a corrupted version of the chimp genome simply because there are differences?
In most cases this won't prevent interbreeding; like blue eyed and brown eyed people can still have children.
But they aren't interbreeding which is why the alleles diverge. It isn't a matter of if they can interbreed, but if they do interbreed. For all we know, humans and chimps can produce offspring, but what is important is that we don't.
What we have is macroevolution produced by the accumulation of microevolutionary events in each lineage.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 380 by CRR, posted 08-15-2017 10:29 PM CRR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 445 by CRR, posted 08-16-2017 6:28 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 408 of 908 (817272)
08-16-2017 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 381 by CRR
08-15-2017 10:38 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
CRR writes:
That is so, and very few of the beneficial mutations are due to increases in genetic information.
Do you have any science to back up this assertion?
Are the differences between the chimp and human genomes a loss in information?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 381 by CRR, posted 08-15-2017 10:38 PM CRR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 444 by CRR, posted 08-16-2017 6:24 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 409 of 908 (817273)
08-16-2017 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 383 by Faith
08-15-2017 11:54 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
Faith writes:
Even if ALL mutations were beneficial, selection inevitably brings about loss of genetic diversity.
And mutations replenish that genetic diversity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 383 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 11:54 PM Faith has not replied

  
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