|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: MACROevolution vs MICROevolution - what is it? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6
|
Faith writes: It's been backed up over and over and over again. There's no way it can't happen, and besides it's even been agreed that it happens. Breeding examples are the clearest demonstration of why and how it has to happen even in nature. Selection has to reduce genetic diversity, that's all there is to it. And mutations have to increase genetic diversity, that's all there is to it.
You can't get a population of new phenotypes if genetic material for other phenotypes remains at any appreciable level in the population. And after the new phenotype becomes fixed in the population, new mutations will produce new phenotypes which replace the previous phenotypes. It never stops.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6 |
Faith writes: The gas analogy doesn't work. It works perfectly. You are claiming that evolution will run out of gas. You are claiming that evolution can only go as far as the gas currently in the tank will allow it. We are pointing out the fact that you can put more gas in the tank. You are saying that after you buy a car you can only go for about 300-400 miles until the gas runs out. You are saying that putting gas in the tank ruins the purpose of the engine burning that gas. That is how silly your argument is.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6 |
DOCJ writes: Here is a quote from the Strong's Hebrew Lexicon regarding kind atblueletterbible.org. Using that definition of "kind", there is only one kind of life on planet Earth because all species share a common ancestor. Humans belong to the same kind as all other species.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6
|
DOCJ writes: According to your interpretation. According to the interpretation of the evidence by hundreds of thousands of scientists over the last 150 years. If you think their scientific interpretation of the evidence leading to the conclusion of universal common ancestry is wrong, then perhaps you could present the scientific case for a lack of common ancestry.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6 |
Faith writes: If you have been breeding only short-haired small dogs over that many years you should certainly have reached a point where you couldn't switch to larger long-haired dogs from that same line because you WOULD have lost all the genetic material for that kind of dog by that point. Please explain why it is impossible for mutations to occur in these breeds leading to larger bodies.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6 |
Faith writes: Tell that to the cheetah. What is stopping mutations from increasing genetic diversity in cheetahs?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6
|
Faith writes: Well, consider the odds. Not only does your mutation have to occur at the gene locus for the long haired trait, it has to be a particular sequence that would code for the protein for that trait, it also has to be dominant and able to be expressed even if ten other genes also code for hair length and they are all homozygous for short hair, and it has to occur in a sex cell in order to be passed on. Then if it gets passed on and shows up in half the pups in that litter it will probably only be a LITTLE longer than the short haired type anyway, but you could start your new breed from there. But again, consider the odds. If the odds are not zero, then it will happen. Humans have shown us that there are many mutations that produce the same phenotype, such as skin color or eye color. The same would apply to hair length.
See above for the odds based on a mutation. My guess is that it would in fact be impossible and that even if you got a slightly longer haired pup it would take many generations before it got long enough to be what you have in mind by simply multiplying the effect of that one gene. And I don't even know if that's possible. The odds are seriously against you. Where did you calculate the odds? First, how many mutations will produce long hair in dogs. Please list them. Second, what is the mutation rate in dogs. Until you supply those numbers you are just making stuff up.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6 |
DOCJ writes: 2nd: If you don't accept the definition of kind within the written word that is a moot point. Using that definition, how do you determine if two species belong to the same kind? What criteria do you use?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6 |
Faith writes: Highly improbable because you have to get the mutation at a particular locus for size, and there are probably many genes that affect size so getting just one at one locus may not produce much change anyway because they've all become homozygous for the smaller size through generations of breeding for the smaller size. You need to provide some evidence for these claims. You also need to show your math.
And the usual reminder: If a mutation hasn't occurred at the right place for the cheetah in all the time of its sojourn on the earth, what makes it even remotely likely to occur in any other genome? What is the "right place" in the cheetah genome? Please cite evidence.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6
|
DOCJ writes: Exactly what is written in 2 tim 4 3-4. Writing stuff in books doesn't change reality. You need to address the facts of reality.
FYI science changes like the wind. However, you do make it sound like scientists only believe in evolution. Lol. People changing their minds in the face of overwhelming evidence is what they should do. Why do you think dogma is better than having an open mind?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6
|
Faith writes: Well, but to an astronomical degree when you are talking about such a specific mutation. Let's see your math.
Yes, but after so many generations of breeding for short hairs you may very well have the condition of homozygosity across all the genes that affect hair length, in which case picking out the slightly longer haired one won't have the necessary genetic foundation and you won't be able to breed for the long hair. You will be able to breed for long hair if there is a mutation that produces long hair.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but your human lineage hasn't been subjected to methodical selection for particular traits has it? Have you all been isolated on a desert island for hundreds of years? Are you maybe Amish? (They are having genetic problems now because of inbreeding over many generations). According to you, all humans should be homozygous at every gene, and we should all have the same alleles. Otherwise, we would not be species with set characteristics. This is how ridiculous your position is.
Well not to judge by anything you've said so far. The odds are against you if the circumstances are as I've described them. Again, show us your math. Assertions are worth nothing.
and the extremely rare beneficial ones probably aren't going to show up for a hundred years, or in the germ cell where they can get passed on, for a thousand, but let's say they do show up: what you are getting is a scattering of mutations within a population, not a new variety, just a few scattered mutations that pop up in different individuals here and there. The reason that humans and chimps are different species is because of mutations scattered through their genomes.
The thing is, ANY time you get a new variety or species, meaning the formation of a population characterized by traits that differ from that of the parent population, you HAVE TO lose the genetic material for all the other traits that could occur in the population. And new genetic material is produced by new mutations. You might as well say that a car can only travel 400 miles because it only has enough gas to travel 400 miles.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6 |
CRR writes: Yes.In the book "Biological Information: New Perspectives" the chapter entitled "Getting There First: An Evolutionary Rate Advantage for Adaptive Loss-of-Function Mutations" looks at the likelihood of gain-of-function and loss-of-function mutations occurring in a given population and finds loss-of-function mutations to be more probable in general, both in theory and in practice. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzD3hhvepK8&index=20&list... That indicates that gains of function do occur through random mutations.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6 |
CRR writes: "Now when the isolated populations merge ..."Maybe they won't interbreed, maybe they can't, but probably they can and will. They didn't in the example we are using. Humans and chimps don't interbreed.
You can tell your story, I'll tell mine. What you apparently won't do is address the example I have given where there is no interbreeding.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6 |
DOCJ writes: Ok. In DNA there is plenty of room for information to be stored, no need to think it was lost. When DNA accumulates mutations at a rate consistent with neutral drift then there is reason to think that it has lost function. About 90% of the human genome is accumulating mutations at a rate consistent with neutral drift.
And most of the time mutations lead to death, or the mutation is destroyed within the creature causing abortion. If that were so then there wouldn't be any humans. Each human is born with 50-100 mutations. If you are correct, then every conception would end in a spontaneous abortion.
This idea that mutations lead to new species and then to new kinds so to speak, over billions of years is hypothetical with exception to simple life forms such as plants. If the DNA sequence differences between species are not responsible for the physical differences between species, then please tell us what is.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6 |
DOCJ writes: Books actually do change reality though. If I write a book that says the Sun orbits the Earth, the Sun will not start orbiting the Earth.
I'm arguing 1 it can be unhealthy and 2 Science changes like the wind. That should help you draw a better conclusion (i.e to change your mind) about the process of Science and the related flaws. The theory of evolution has been around for 150 years now. Still going strong.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024