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Author Topic:   Can random mutations cause an increase in information in the genome?
nwr
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Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 8 of 310 (286238)
02-13-2006 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Garrett
02-13-2006 12:00 PM


Can you provide an example of a random mutation that is known to increase the information content of the genome?
"Increase the information content" seems to me to be a dubious requirement.
On mutations, I found a lot of interesting information in Some mutations sound too good to be true. I suggest you take a look.
Apparently some mutations result in the duplication of a segment of DNA. This increases the total size of the DNA, and ought to count as in increase in the information content.
Let's look at some of your comments on information.
Information is the product of a mental process, not a material one.
That's fine with me. The implication is that DNA contains no information, and no information is needed for biological organisms to develop from DNA. But this view of "information" makes moot your concern about "increase in information in the genome."
In terms of human biology, information would be defined as the message or meaning that is derived from the ordered complexity of DNA molecules.
Now you appear to be contradicting the previous definition (the one that required information to be the product of a mental process). So which is it to be - the previous definition or this one? And if you want it to be this one, how will you define "ordered complexity"?

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 Message 1 by Garrett, posted 02-13-2006 12:00 PM Garrett has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Garrett, posted 02-14-2006 11:01 AM nwr has replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 140 of 310 (286681)
02-14-2006 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Garrett
02-14-2006 11:01 AM


Adding extra copies of the same information doesn't add any new meaning, just more instances of the same meaning.
That's what I expected you would say. And then if that extra copy is changed to be different information, you will say that was lost information. Nevertheless, with duplication followed by modification you get new information.
You are using a vague definition of "information", and then expressing opinion to assert that there was nothing new.
If you look at scientific laws, they are closely connected to empirical procedures, often with measurements. And they are defined precisely. You would need a definition of "information" such that we can tell from the definition how much information there is in a genome. And then you would have to show how that definition is relevant to biology and the evolution argument.
My prediction: if you ever come up with a suitable definition, it will turn out that biological systems are indeed creating new information by means of mutation.
As to my quote, "Information is the product of a mental process, not a material one." The implication is that God put it there, not chance.
I have no problems with theistic evolution, if that is what you are proposing.
MacBeth didn't write itself, a human did. The blueprints used to assemble a plane didn't come together naturally, rather a human designed them.
But those are poor analogies to evolution.
Likewise, the blueprints of our bodies (the information content in our DNA) did not create itself but was designed.
Sure. The parent organism designed it as a message to the cellular machinery on what proteins to construct. So we see it designed by a biological system as a message to another biological system.
No need for you to reply to this. I can see that the thread has kept you pretty busy.

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 151 of 310 (286709)
02-15-2006 12:05 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by randman
02-14-2006 11:47 PM


Re: Clarify some please?
If it is true that if you roll some dice, say, a few thousand times, you can predict the pattern with some degree of accuracy, then the pattern is predictable, and is thus non-random even if in a smaller context, the individual roll of the dice is random per a range.
Speaking as a mathematician, I have to disagree.
"Random" need not imply that all outcomes are equi-probable.

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 Message 156 by randman, posted 02-15-2006 12:11 AM nwr has replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 163 of 310 (286722)
02-15-2006 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by randman
02-15-2006 12:11 AM


Re: Clarify some please?
nwr, can you explain what is meant by "random mutations" in the context of evolutionary theory?
I'm not a biologist, so I am probably the wrong person to ask. As I understand it, this simply means that there is no observed direction to the mutations.

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 166 of 310 (286725)
02-15-2006 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by randman
02-15-2006 12:11 AM


Re: Clarify some please?
Are you saying that the general pattern of mutations is highly predictable but just random per individual occurence, as with rolling of dice, or something larger?
I wouldn't put it that way. The mutation rate is small enough, that it doesn't compare well to multiple rolls of dice.
If you could replay a small segment of life, then I would expect observable differences in the individual creatures that are there as a result of mutations.
The overall outcome of evolution might be similar. But that's because the direction is determined by averages over large populations, so that natural selection is a major factor in how a species evolves.

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 178 of 310 (286811)
02-15-2006 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by randman
02-15-2006 1:56 AM


Re: Final definition
To illustrate this idea. Think of a card counter in Vegas. He can beat the house if not caught because the cards are predicatable even if random per hand. There is a control that governs what is likely to occur. So he uses a "random process" to get a particular result because the entire process is not random at all, but very predictable.
You are misusing "random".
Suppose I toss a coin. The result is random, with equal probabilities for heads or tails.
Now suppose that I toss a coin 100 times, and count how many times the coin showed heads. It is predictable that the answer won't be too far from 50. But it is still random, even though predictable. The outcomes are no longer equi-probable. Instead, they follow the binomial probability distribution.
You are confusing "random" with "equi-probable". They are not the same thing at all.
You might find it interesting to google "monte carlo methods".

This message is a reply to:
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