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Author Topic:   Can random mutations cause an increase in information in the genome?
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 765 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 20 of 310 (286428)
02-14-2006 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Garrett
02-14-2006 11:01 AM


Garret: from the archives....
To lift a post of my own from a different forum, where the canard of "no new information" is actually the subject of the thread, but the example is one of my favorites. I think of Hemoglobin C as sort of a "sickle-cell lite."
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Ref: Nature, vol 414, pp 305-308 (2001) - "Haemoglobin C protects against clinical Plasmodium falciparum malaria" , by D Modiano et al. It's not online, to my knowledge, except by paid subscription.
Normal human hemoglobin ("HbA") is coded for by DNA which reads, as the 16th through 18th positions of a certain gene, GAA. This codon tells a cell's protein factory to put the amino acid glutamate at the sixth spot along the peptide that will become the beta chain of your or my hemoglobin. However, in a large number of West Africans, particularly the Mossi of Burkina Faso, this speck of DNA reads AAA. The distribution of folks with this variant looks like a bull's-eye: lots of the gene in one area of Burkina Faso, and fewer and fewer people with it as you move away from that center. The distribution is consistent with the idea that one person had the mutation about a thousand years ago, and that it spread through his or her descendants since. (Most people weren't terribly mobile in that area until nearly modern times - at least until the slave trade started.)
Now this DNA change alters that sixth amino acid on the beta chain of hemoglobin to lysine, making HbC. Most people with hemoglobin C never know it - some have mild anemia, gallstones, or spleen problems. But Modiano's paper documents that Mossi children that have both genes for HbC are 7% as likely to develop malaria as their classmates who have boring old HbA. 7% as likely to get the disease that kills a couple of million kids in West Africa every year. And that's because their genome has the information to make a protein that has one amino acid that's different from the one in their neighbors, and in their ancestors, too, if you go back a ways. New information. Useful new information. (You will agree that being able to make two different proteins is "more information" than being able to make only one, won't you? Kids in the study that had the AC genotype - that had both HbA and HbC in their blood - had a 29% reduction in their chance of getting malaria.) New, useful, "information" from a mutation.
Now a footnote: if your DNA reads GUA instead of GAA in this position, you get a valine in position 6 and have sickle-cell trait - the result of a different mutated hemoglobin called HbS. This protects against malaria, too, but the side effects can be severe, including fatal, especially if you have both genes for HbS. This, too, is "new information" - a different protein is being made.
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Comments?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Garrett, posted 02-14-2006 11:01 AM Garrett has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Coragyps, posted 02-14-2006 2:22 PM Coragyps has not replied
 Message 78 by randman, posted 02-14-2006 2:39 PM Coragyps has not replied
 Message 85 by Garrett, posted 02-14-2006 3:01 PM Coragyps has replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 765 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 72 of 310 (286523)
02-14-2006 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Coragyps
02-14-2006 11:04 AM


Garrett (or Randman): post 20, this thread, if you get the time.
Thanks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Coragyps, posted 02-14-2006 11:04 AM Coragyps has not replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 765 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 101 of 310 (286570)
02-14-2006 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Garrett
02-14-2006 3:01 PM


the actual trigger that prevents malaria is the fact that the mutation causes the hemoglobin to form in the wrong shape and fail to carry oxygen.
That doesn't appear to be the case. People with hemoglobin C or HbS carry malaria parasite loads in their red blood cells just fine. These mutations, however, reduce the formation of little "pimples" that Plasmodium induces on the RBC surface. These bumps appear to be what makes malarial cells clump and cause the most debilitating symptoms of malaria.
And hemoglobin S still carries oxygen. It just crystallizes in a odd way when it's deoxygenated, causing cells to sickle. Hemoglobin C doesn't even do this: it frequently never causes symptoms in its possessers at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Garrett, posted 02-14-2006 3:01 PM Garrett has not replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 765 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 105 of 310 (286575)
02-14-2006 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Garrett
02-14-2006 3:31 PM


Re: logical?
It is unreasonable to believe something could begin to exist without a cause.
The universe therefore requires a cause.
But any and all Gods get a free pass today, and don't have to abide by this rule as long as they are 4 feet 6 inches or taller.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Garrett, posted 02-14-2006 3:31 PM Garrett has not replied

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